Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:07 pm

amother Gold wrote:

That's what is so troubling here. With all the Torah learning and with all the Gedolim involved, how can any leader not recognize that the current setup is unsustainable. Regardless of the war, our generations have grown in leaps and bounds BH! To expect so many in society to be supported instead of contributing can't be done until Moshiach comes. Are we now in a place where the blind is leading the blind?

This isn't about Torah learning. It's about leaders clinging to a flawed system and not wanting to admit that it needs to be reset. They have the opportunity to reset it in ways that still preserves the core Torah learning, while making some necessary changes. And it all can be done in line with the Torah.

If we truly follow the guidance of the Torah, there wouldn't be this negative outcome of unsustainability. The fact that it's financially not feasible is evidence that there are flaws in the setup. The Torah is so Emes and so True, that truly following it would not lead to this mess.

So it begs the question, how much longer will we bury our heads in the sand while cloaking ourselves with presumptuous righteousness.

What is not financially feasible?

Last edited by Bnei Berak 10 on Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:12 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

What is not financially frasible?

A society can only support a limited number of people. That gets compounded when large number of able-bodied people don't contribute and instead set themselves up to be supported.

amother

↑ Black ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:17 pm

someone wrote:

So don't let them succeed. Don't buy into the hyperbole and the lies. Understand that behind the politics and the people pushing their agenda there is a real issue that has to be resolved. We can fix the problem together, there are enough people who want to find a genuine solution that it's possible. No one is trying to destroy the world of Torah. No one has to choose between learning and serving in the army. The world is much more complicated than the soundbites we are all being fed

No one? I beg to differ. There are lots of people whose aim is precisely that: to destroy the Torah world. They say it more or less openly.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:18 pm

amother Gold wrote:

A society can only support a limited number of people. That gets compounded when large number of able-bodied people don't contribute and instead set themselves up to be supported.

I don't see the state of Israel shelling out support on avrechim. The get a few hundred shekels a month.
Don't contribute? What contribution are you referring to?
There is not law that says both the man and the woman must work.

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:21 pm

amother Black wrote:

No one? I beg to differ. There are lots of people whose aim is precisely that: to destroy the Torah world. They say it more or less openly.

Yes, you're right. But that's what I mean when I say we have to look beneath the hyperbole and the politics. There is a real need here, and a real problem that we have to solve. If there is willingness on both sides (and I may be naive but I genuinely believe that this time there is willingness on the part of the army) it is possible to find a solution that would not be the end of the Torah world ch"v.
But if all we do is yell at each other and refuse to budge an inch we'll get nowhere

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:21 pm

amother Floralwhite wrote:

I believe the army should be voluntary to all.
They made their choice and I daven for them all the time. But I am happy with my choice even if you throw tomatoes.

I also believe that army should be voluntary, but then I also believe that supporting Torah learning should be voluntary too.

Shouldn't it be both ways - a fair exchange? Our boys get to choose whether they join the army, and others get to choose whether they want to support our setup. It doesn't make sense that one group gets to choose and the other is forced to do that groups bidding.

amother

↑ Black ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:21 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

There might not be such a law yet but AG Baharav Miara is going to create one (without the help of the Knesset). Or more exactly, she's going to issue a decree to that effect - that any family in which only the wife works and the husband learns will be ineligible for arnona, maon subsidies, etc.

amother

↑ Gold

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:24 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

A few hundred shekels a month times a large number is a significant number.

If it's such a negligible amount why all the frantic fundraising now?

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:26 pm

amother Black wrote:

Baharav Miara is a disgrace, but just to clarify - you mean any family in which the wife works and the husband learns and didn't do army service. For example, my husband has been in full time learning for over 20 years and only I work, but we would still be eligible because he did army service...

amother

Lime ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 4:00 pm

DrMom wrote:

Are you referring to someone specific? Whom?

I don't know if their sons and daughters served, but the vast majority of the Supreme Court justices themselves served in the IDF, judging from their bios:
https://supreme.court.gov.il/s......aspx

Furthermore, just last week the Knesset drafted a bill delaying retirement for IDF reservists. This was necessary to address manpower shortages in the army arising from the war. It is the second such extension since the war started.

It is a massive chilul Hashem that this is necessary when there are thousands and thousands of able-bodied young men sitting around and not contributing to the war effort.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....lash/

Yes it is, and no amount of learning can combat that.
The learning of all the young men under the draft age should be enough zechusim for everyone. The learning of grown men is not necessary. To all of those against this ruling - just say it like it is: you dont want your husband, son, brother, etc.. in harms way. No one does. But the idea that someone has to fight till age 50 because someone is learning!?! As I said, there are plenty of ways to earning zechusim for the soldiers. The learning of charedim doesnt have to be one of them.

amother

↑ Lime

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 4:03 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

You need a serious crash course in what constitutes a Chilul Hashem. A secular Israeli government who boats of a transgender Eurovision winner, violates kashrus, has an army that is openly mechalel shabbos without need and is rife with much licentiousness including kareis prohibitions is the very definition of chilul Hashem, not those sitting and learning Hashems holy Torah, the purpose of our nation’s (and Eretz Yisraels) existence.

Where is the down vote button?
How can any of these men live with themselves when others are dying in their place? You dont have to learn Torah full time to fulfills our nation's "existence".

amother

Broom ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 4:57 pm

My chareidi cousin from Bnei brak once told me she feels more of a kinship with religious Arab women than secular Jews. I've never managed to understand it. It's a shocking statement but evidently not unheard of.

amother

Brown ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 4:58 pm

Let’s say everyone agrees learning Torah is the best way to defend the country. And that we want everyone to be frum. So all men become charedi and want to learn full time. Now there’s no one in the army but those non-Jews who opt to serve, assuming Jewish women do sherut leumi or get an exemption.

So in this scenario Israel is completely protected?

The status quo just seems like a house of cards that depends on people not being charedi.

↑ paperflowers ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:17 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Question: If one doesn't want to be a combat soldier, then what? You think you can instill motivation in someone who isn't interested? Think again.

I wouldn't underestimate the potential of passionate young men.
And you don't get to choose if you are a combat soldier or not.
My post was in response to a statement that the military doesn't need chareidim, as evidenced by them turning away so many potential recruits, and my point was that you can't generalize from 30 year olds being turned away to 20 year olds.
That doesn't mean they need every yeshiva bachur, but I believe that they need more recruits from the chareidi sector.

amother

Grape

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:20 pm

amother Brown wrote:

If the entire Jewish population in Israel becomes frum then I strongly believe mashiach will be here. Don't you?

↑ paperflowers ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 5:22 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Every cloud has a silver lining. The guys who are in yeshiva but actually want to go to IDF will know have a "valid excuse" so to say "they drafted me, I had no choice"

I wonder if the number of those people who would rather serve would be enough to balance things out more, allowing those who do want to keep learning uninterrupted to be able to do so.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 6:51 pm

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Chareidim should definitely be contributing to the safeguarding of the country. Why are they exempt?

There should also be lots of men learning Torah.

But let's be real, many of our boys in yeshivah would do much better in the army. Not everyone is made for full time learning. I have some relatives doing shady teenage business, bored and unmotivated. Why?

Also, If the torah learning is meant to protect us, the chareidim are not doing it well. Evidently. Way to many tragic deaths with the terrorist attack and during the war.

Can't have it all ways.

In one of the newspapers, someone wrote, let's open an investigation to determine why torah isn't protecting enough.

The Army isnt a rehab center for drop out chareidim.

↑ Aurora ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 7:22 pm

paperflowers wrote:

I wonder if the number of those people who would rather serve would be enough to balance things out more, allowing those who do want to keep learning uninterrupted to be able to do so.

And you don't think that those in the army would prefer to be learning or what have you? Why is your blood redder than ours?

↑ paperflowers ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 7:37 pm

Aurora wrote:

And you don't think that those in the army would prefer to be learning or what have you? Why is your blood redder than ours?

What part of what I wrote gave you the impression that I think that?