Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

↑ Aurora ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:51 pm

My brother is in the army. he is the most ehrliche person I know, and spends all his time learning and helping. Shame on you all.

I lost another close relative in Gaza. Also very learned. After DH, my father, and my brother, one of the best people I have ever known.

I am so upset and hurt at the assumptions that (a) it's either army or learning and (b) anyone in the army is automatically having issues with tahara and such (c) they are somehow less holy than you.

You want your men to be safe. So do we. And maybe if we had more men in the army (and learning at the same time), this could be more doable.

↑ Reality ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:51 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

The truth is that the real two state solution should be two Israeli states - charedi and secular - those in between like dati can choose. Those two groups have about as much in common as Israelis and Palestinians do - actually charedi probably have more in common with Palestinians because they are both religious. Unfortunately, achdus is a myth and a naive dream. Those two groups have totally different visions for the country.

I think this is the most horrible thing I have ever read on imamother.

I invite you to go to the "Palestinian" areas and see how you would be treated. On second thought, since I love my fellow Jew, I take it back. You see the last Jew that went there was murdered and his car was set on fire.

Ya still think you have a lot in common?

amother

↑ Khaki ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:54 pm

amother Latte wrote:

I wonder what Hasem is thinking and seeing how we talk about our brothers who are dieing protecting us we believe in olam haba talking negative about the children of hasem is not going to open doors for you. Think real hard before making negative statements against hasems children! They all have mother's davening and crying about the safety of their children and Hasem listens to their crying as much as he listens to you!

I never know what hashem is thinking. I certainly don't try to guess either based on whether something good or bad happens.

Do you know what hashem is thinking?

↑ LovesHashem

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 12:58 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

You know an Israeli filmmaker made a short 6 episode TV show a few years ago about this reality. It was so horrifying and ugly and awful.

Trailer has English subtitles, the series does not.

A guardian article about the series.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/a.....omies

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:03 pm

This thread and all the terrible things that have been said against chayalim, its just awful.
A chayal from my yishuv was killed quite a few months ago. He was such a learner and a do gooder. He always had a sefer when not in active duty.
Why the need to put down all chayalim? They are our brothers, no matter what.
Do you know how many not religious soldiers put on tefilin when this war started?

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:16 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

never never agree.
not one boy or man should stop learning.
not one

Do you lock the doors at night to keep intruders at bay?

Do you or your husband work for an income?

Why is it that when it comes to the state of Israel to people believe that they don't have to do hishtadlos?

Let's discuss this. Explain your reasoning.

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:19 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

This is not a one time sum; it represents ongoing annual commitments, and will be distributed in the exact amounts of the funding that was lost per yeshiva and kollel.

The Eidah Hachreidis, Brisk, and other anti government factions have never taken government funding since the States founding. They have never paid any attention to the army or the draft. The AG and Supreme Court are succeeding in pushing the more moderate mainstream yeshivos towards that camp which is probably an unintended consequence of their campaign against the yeshivos.

If I had to guess I would say the net result will be that perhaps they peel of a handful of the yeshivos that are already more centrist, and perhaps a few of the Sefardi yeshivos as well, but radicalize the rest of them to take an far more hardline position vs the secular state.

Honestly, I think this is more warfare propaganda than actual truth. The communities that these monies are coming from are struggling themselves. Their institutions, including schools, yeshiva and many kollels are all in the red. So I see this as a situational response more than a long term response.

With inflation and all the other global issues, this makes no sense to be a viable long term solution. The leaders will obviously not admit to this now. They need to create the image that they can get financial support elsewhere so that financial pressure cant be used as means of negotiations.

I can't see the win for us though if we continue down this road, even if we win the army issue. If we say we can be self sufficient, then the govt will latch onto that and use that to remove all support. Why are you demanding taxpayers money from the government, if you can get it yourself? And if we are truly relying on help from struggling communities, how long do you think they will step up? Do you think they'll let their own schools and yeshivas go under and continue to send money to Israel?

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:19 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

I get you, but this is not categorized as a milchemet mitzvah. It is a milchama, a real one.
There is a famous video going around from R landau who spoke on this.
This entire country's existence is not a teva-based one. It never was and it never will be.

Absolutely! it's chutz mederech hateva.

Clearly Hashem wanted this to happen.

What are the odds that the UN endorsed and supported the establishment of Israel?

It's mind boggling.

Nissim.

↑ BadTichelDay ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:24 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

I have to pick this up. You feel kinship with the Palestinians because they are religious.
Do you imagine that the religious Palestinians sit on their backside the whole day peacefully studying the Koran?
The so called religious (= Islamist) Palestinians are at the forefront of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (= Islamic holy war) organization.
Good luck in fraternizing with them!

And as a snide side point, one could say that they at least don't dodge their version of the draft. The opposite. The frummer they are, the more they take part in terrorism and fighting.

amother

↑ Gold ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:41 pm

leah233 wrote:

Realistically speaking, whatever your view on who should be drafted is, this ruling can only bring disaster for all involved. No one would consider drafting Arabs and this isn't much different. You can disagree with them but the Chariedim vehemently opposes drafting Yeshiva Bochurim and won't back down. Having an unelected group (the supreme court) that has been consistently and invariably hostile to them where (unlike the Arabs) they have zero representation , make a decision which breaks the status quo that existed as long as Israel does, that in their view will so terribly impact their life and values borders on a declaration of war.

Where is the "reasonableness'" the Israeli Supreme Court ostensibly uses whenever they feel like forcing a decision against what was voted on by the elected representatives of the Israeli public?

And to be clear I do think the Chareidim do need to work out some compromise on this issue (that does not include drafting those who are learning) But this edict is a recipe for disaster! Even in relation to achieving it own ostensible goals

Agree that they need to work out a compromise. Regardless of the war, the current setup is unsustainable. BH, the generations are growing exponentially. It's impossible for such large numbers to be supported by a society.

Our leaders need to figure out how we can contribute bgashmiyus to society as well, not only the rochniyus. Unfortunately, until moshiach comes, we don't get the privilege of ignoring the gashmiyus stuff.

↑ Reality ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:45 pm

Jewishmom8 wrote:

was

Not was.

IF this change really happens, it only affects a limited amount of yeshivas. All DL yeshivas and chabad yeshivas will still have funding. All elementary and high school chareidi yeshivas will still have funding. And any chareidi yeshiva for soldier age students will still have funding if they are willing to work together

You are really being hyperbolic about this.

amother

↑ Papayawhip ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:51 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Every cloud has a silver lining. The guys who are in yeshiva but actually want to go to IDF will know have a "valid excuse" so to say "they drafted me, I had no choice"

It needs to be endorsed by the gedolim.

Being that you and I are both part of the chareidi world, we know that it might affect shidduchim, their kollel opportunities after army service, school options for their kids etc.

You can't just say that boys who want to serve should do that. That's what they could have done until now!

They need support, encouragement and acceptance.

↑ DrMom ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 1:55 pm

amother Blonde wrote:

I am a mother of one child learning and one child in the army. We are chassidish. Let me just say 2 things. 1) the idf, especially combat, is anti charedi at its leadership and b'chlal not conducive to living a chareidi lifestyle. It is right wing in its ranks and they support Bibi by and large. The regular rank and file are not the ones who are saying they need the chareidim to serve alongside them. 2) the high court grabbed away this power from our duly elected officials and they are responding to complaints from leftist activists and elites who are trying to sow division much like in America. Ask these elites if their sons and daughters served in the army- they didn't.

Are you referring to someone specific? Whom?

I don't know if their sons and daughters served, but the vast majority of the Supreme Court justices themselves served in the IDF, judging from their bios:
https://supreme.court.gov.il/s......aspx

Furthermore, just last week the Knesset drafted a bill delaying retirement for IDF reservists. This was necessary to address manpower shortages in the army arising from the war. It is the second such extension since the war started.

It is a massive chilul Hashem that this is necessary when there are thousands and thousands of able-bodied young men sitting around and not contributing to the war effort.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....lash/