Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:07 pm

giftedmom wrote:

Guess we’re about to see many pics and videos of violent demonstrations and police brutality. These people never learn. The amount of manpower they will need to enforce this will outweigh the manpower gained by far, and they won’t end up with any quality soldiers anyway. This isn’t the 1800s Russia.

Unfortunaty the protesters bring it all apon themselves.
And yes, you are correct, "these people" nrcer learn. "These people" keep starting violent protests.
If a protest starts violent, the police should what, lie down and take it? Can't Believe It

amother

↑ Winterberry ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:12 pm

amother Jasmine wrote:

Ok. I chose shimshon because I thought it was pretty obvious he was a complicated character. There are others. Plenty of the kings where it says pretty explicitly in the text that they did "evil in the eyes of Hashem".

There were many who were not tzadikkim but they were not the prototype of the “Jewish warrior with sword and Sefer in hand.” Those who were tzadikkim such as KING David merited divine assistance in vanquishing their enemies. As it says numerous times in Tanach, when bnei Yisrael did evil in the eyes of Hashem they were overpowered by their adversaries. Shimshon was complicated but he was a tzadik in the eyes of Chazal who had one son for which he was delivered into the hands of the Pelishtim.

amother

↑ Winterberry ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

After todays ruling- are the yeshiva bochurim that could be drafted going to learn in the US?

In Navi Hashem warns that it’s a privilege to live in EY, and when we don't behave He kicks us out. Do we realize that it’s a gift that can be taken away at any moment? That Moshiach is not here? That we're still in galus? Tifrach and Ponovich and Wolfson etc are not going to enlist en masse, it’s not going to happen. So what is going to happen?

As we speak, the $107,000,000 that the government is stopping to fund the yeshivos is being raised by the Roshei Yeshivos who are visiting the US. This week alone over $60,000,000 of that sum has already been raised.

The yeshivos have no intention of acceding to the anti chareidi AG and Supreme Court. They realize that the primary leverage the left has is the funding, and are making contingency plans to continue without government funding. The odds of any yeshiva bochurim joining the army are exceedingly slim.

↑ iyar ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:19 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

The truth is that the real two state solution should be two Israeli states - charedi and secular - those in between like dati can choose. Those two groups have about as much in common as Israelis and Palestinians do - actually charedi probably have more in common with Palestinians because they are both religious. Unfortunately, achdus is a myth and a naive dream. Those two groups have totally different visions for the country.

I want to go on the record as saying that I’m appalled to hear you say chareidim have more in common with Palestinians than with their non observant fellow Jews.
ישראל אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא
בין כך ובין כך קרויים בנים
I could go on but you probably don’t want to be lectured. Just don’t put my religiousness and my religion on par with that of our bloodthirsty פרא אדם enemies.
To go on and look at your two state solution, I’m sure you know others have said this before you. I’ve heard it from secular Israelis who say they’re tired of carrying an unfair share of the burden, and from chareidi Israelis who say they’re being persecuted and would be better off on their own. As crazy as it sounds and as much as we know it’s not happening, if we go along with the idea I have a few questions.
Who’s going to provide for chareidi yeshivas and families all the financial benefits they want from the current government when they’re the government? What will the chareidi state do for protection from the hostile countries on their border? Will they have an army?

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:20 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

As we speak, the $107,000,000 that the government is stopping to fund the yeshivos is being raised by the Roshei Yeshivos who are visiting the US. This week alone over $60,000,000 of that sun has already been raised.

The yeshivos have no intention of acceding to the anti chareidi AG and Supreme Court and are making contingency plans to continue without government funding. The odds of any yeshiva bochurim joining the army are exceedingly slim.

And you know this how?

amother

↑ Wandflower ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:26 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

The local news reports have been updating with a running tally of the campaign. Yesterday they were at 50 million. Today they are over 60 million, and well obliged their way to hitting their goal.

Great. So they reached ablut half their goal.
2 questions: how will this work every year?
And how and who will distribute this money?
There is no way this will work long term.

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:26 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

The local news reports have been updating with a running tally of the campaign. Yesterday they were at 50 million. Today they are over 60 million, and well obliged their way to hitting their goal.

But that isn't a long term solution. And there are all kinds of other financial sanctions that can't be fixed with fundraising abroad (I heard today that avrechim who haven't been in the army won't get subsidized maon, that's a massive deal)

amother

Khaki ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:27 pm

amother Mayflower wrote:

Many sources say that Torah doesn’t protect against death. Legitimate Gemara sources. Just saying we choose which sources we want to go with.

Genuinely curious to understand why everyone (including yeshivos) uprooted from the north if they feel torah is the ultimate protection. How would we explain this?

↑ iyar ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:27 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Do you live in Israel? Your post is one of the saddest thing I have ever read a religious woman write.
You think the charedi population is closer to the palestinians because they are religious? What dystopia do you belong to?
And dati leumi people are not "in the middle".
There is so much more to a person, to an isrseli, to a jew, than if they believe in army service or not. Yes, its a big contenscious thing, but its not the only thing.
And no, achdut is not a myth. There has been so much achdut these last 8 months.
Your view on what you think all reality is, is just so sad. And disturbing coming from a frum lady.

Shabbatiscoming, I saw your reply after I wrote mine. I found it interesting to see us agree. We don’t always Smile

I also found it funny she put DL “in the middle”. In the middle of what? By rights if she’s giving the chareidim a state and the non religious a state, the DL community should have the same privilege, no? If we’re doing dystopia let’s do it right.

amother

↑ Winterberry ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:32 pm

amother Wandflower wrote:

Great. So they reached ablut half their goal.
2 questions: how will this work every year?
And how and who will distribute this money?
There is no way this will work long term.

This is not a one time sum; it represents ongoing annual commitments, and will be distributed in the exact amounts of the funding that was lost per yeshiva and kollel.

The Eidah Hachreidis, Brisk, and other anti government factions have never taken government funding since the States founding. They have never paid any attention to the army or the draft. The AG and Supreme Court are succeeding in pushing the more moderate mainstream yeshivos towards that camp which is probably an unintended consequence of their campaign against the yeshivos.

If I had to guess I would say the net result will be that perhaps they peel of a handful of the yeshivos that are already more centrist, and perhaps a few of the Sefardi yeshivos as well, but radicalize the rest of them to take an far more hardline position vs the secular state.

amother

Latte

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:35 pm

I wonder what Hasem is thinking and seeing how we talk about our brothers who are dieing protecting us we believe in olam haba talking negative about the children of hasem is not going to open doors for you. Think real hard before making negative statements against hasems children! They all have mother's davening and crying about the safety of their children and Hasem listens to their crying as much as he listens to you!

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:38 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

Where do you live?
Another question: You remember what happened last time Eretz Israel was divided in two? It didn't go well.

amother

↑ Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:38 pm

someone wrote:

But that's my entire point. Even though mashiach isn't here yet we aren't in galut the way we were 200 hundred years ago in Poland. Hashem has given us the ability, the duty and the privilege of being able to fight for our people and our Land, for the first time in 2000 years. We are seeing before our eyes the revival of the ancient model of a Jew with a sword (or gun) in one hand and a sefer in the other

That is your view, but I don't believe that to be the chareidi hashkafa? If anyone can clarify.
I'm Chassidish, and we believe we are still very much in Galus, as we were 200 years ago.

↑ Jewishmom8 ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:39 pm

amother Winterberry wrote:

I think this is very accurate.
I am rethinking why we even bothered voting.
Gimmel is in the gov and the main thing they were there to do did not get accomplished.
Maybe we should be more brisk or Eida.

amother

Blonde ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:41 pm

I am a mother of one child learning and one child in the army. We are chassidish. Let me just say 2 things. 1) the idf, especially combat, is anti charedi at its leadership and b'chlal not conducive to living a chareidi lifestyle. It is right wing in its ranks and they support Bibi by and large. The regular rank and file are not the ones who are saying they need the chareidim to serve alongside them. 2) the high court grabbed away this power from our duly elected officials and they are responding to complaints from leftist activists and elites who are trying to sow division much like in America. Ask these elites if their sons and daughters served in the army- they didn't.

amother

Heather

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:47 pm

I think the Chabad model would be good to adopt at a bigger scale.

Currently (if I am understanding it correctly) they are not drafted until age 26, at which point they are hopefully married and less vulnerable to any negative influences from the IDF.

Additionally 15% (chosen by the Roshei Yeshiva and agreed upon by the army) receive permanent exemptions, in this case so they can become shluchim earlier, but for a broader Chareidi crowd would mean that elite students could receive a permanent exemption.

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:48 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

That is your view, but I don't believe that to be the chareidi hashkafa? If anyone can clarify.
I'm Chassidish, and we believe we are still very much in Galus, as we were 200 years ago.

It's not my personal view, it's the view of my rabbanim. But yes, for sure it's not the chareidi hashkafa, although if I understand correctly there are different approaches within the chareidi world, but I'll let someone who is part of that world address it, because I don't want to misrepresent anything

↑ someone ↓

Tue, Jun 25 2024, 3:50 pm

amother Blonde wrote:

Nachon, the whole discussion has been hijacked by people with an agenda who are using the issue of chareidim joining the army for their own cynical political needs. And the Supreme Court certainly isn't suspect of helping anything, to a large degree they caused this whole problem.
And I totally agree that the army the way it is now has tons of issues that have to be solved, and that if the army is serious about recruiting chareidim they have to make the necessary arrangements so that they can continue to live a chareidi life. I know there are serious efforts underway, I hope they will bear fruit.