Supreme court ruling- Drafting charedim

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mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 4:26 am

amother Mistyrose wrote:

The truth is that the real two state solution should be two Israeli states - charedi and secular - those in between like dati can choose. Those two groups have about as much in common as Israelis and Palestinians do - actually charedi probably have more in common with Palestinians because they are both religious. Unfortunately, achdus is a myth and a naive dream. Those two groups have totally different visions for the country.

This post and views like it are the reason why moshiach isn’t here now . Well done. I hope you’re proud of yourself .

↑ Iymnok ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 4:32 am

someone wrote:

I'm saying again that I know first hand from people who are in very high up positions that there are serious efforts being made by the army to create conditions that are suitable for chareidim, ad hasof. The army has the responsibility to do that and to keep to it. But when chareidim say we won't join the army under any circumstances, no matter what, that doesn't help. Both sides have to understand the other and try and find a solution together

There are chareidim working to make a misgeret for chassidish boys who are not doing well in the system and need a full misgeret. He is working with the Rebbe of his chassidus and has his full backing. He has been successful. I know because there have been protests (blessed in from elsewhere) in front of his house.
It's a dorm and mostly computer jobs.

the world's best mom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:31 am

amother Mistyrose wrote:

We got the Torah k'ish echad b'lev echad. The goal is to get back to that, not to keep everyone as separate as could be. All Jews are our brothers and sisters. No, achdus is not a myth. It is a goal. We have reached it before and we hope to again.

Anyway, no Jews should be living without Torah, so ideally, there should not be any secular Jews. I know I'll get tomatoes thrown at me for this statement, and people will say I don't like secular Jews. In reality, I love secular Jews, but they should start keeping mitzvos. It's a fact.

↑ Aurora ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:46 am

Iymnok wrote:

The biggest problem is the hateful secularists who gave an agenda that they are trying to force. Working quietly, within the Chareidi and army systems would achieve better results faster.
This ruling is irresponsible.

As opposed to the incentives they tried during the past few years? I feel as though I've read a bunch of articles on ways they have tried to integrate charedim into the army in the past bunch of years, if not decades.

For instance, this article dates back to 2013: https://www.ynetnews.com/artic......html

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:49 am

I’m glad I live in the US.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 5:49 am

https://youtu.be/os8O9I4-ZDg?s.....EoCB1

NOTE carefully: There are certain sectors where there is a lack of manpower. On the other hand there are many which are being discharged from their army service because they are not needed anymore.
Does anyone really think all the problems that the army has will be solved if ALL chareidim would go to serve IDF?
It's all political propaganda.

SSR

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:09 am

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Chareidim should definitely be contributing to the safeguarding of the country. Why are they exempt?

There should also be lots of men learning Torah.

But let's be real, many of our boys in yeshivah would do much better in the army. Not everyone is made for full time learning. I have some relatives doing shady teenage business, bored and unmotivated. Why?

Also, If the torah learning is meant to protect us, the chareidim are not doing it well. Evidently. Way to many tragic deaths with the terrorist attack and during the war.

Can't have it all ways.

In one of the newspapers, someone wrote, let's open an investigation to determine why torah isn't protecting enough.

Whoa that statement was extremely rude and uncalled for and totally inappropriate. I strongly Bielive that the Torah learning is taking a big part of the protection, October 7th and the bombing of Lebanon both happened during Ben Hazmanim isn’t that interesting, that both biggest thing of this whole war happened when there wasn’t as much consistent learning going on? So clearly it is doing something. Hashem runs this world and we have no right to even state why we think things are happening and to say that the learning isn’t doing anything is exactly what Hashem doesn’t want, learning holds up the whole world and there is a reason that it is that way. The IDF is a beautiful way to serve your country and for the right women and men it is the right way for them to serve, the IDF is working very hard and protecting us, we can’t hate on that either clearly it’s ratzon Hashem….we gotta see that Hashem is trying to tell us something here….sitting and learning is also a beautiful way to serve your country and it is 100% just that, to say that being in the IDF is the only way it is not true, also I know to many boys that went into the army fully chareidi and didn’t come out that way and it is horrible….its very hard how could they not, so to say that boys sitting and learning should go to the army I do not think it’s correct. Yes there is definitely boys that don’t belong sitting a learning all day but they also don’t belong in the army. I am totally not anti army I think it’s a beautiful way to serve your country and I love to hear when people do that but not to force boys who are sitting and learning into the army. Hashem is clearly trying to tell us something here and it’s our choice if we wanna listen and do something about, we want mashiach let’s do our part and try to bring it the last beis hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam let’s try to not do that again and just love every Jew and not hate on boys learning or people joining the IDF there both beautiful things!

↑ Aurora ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:30 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

https://youtu.be/os8O9I4-ZDg?si=1hwkIRaeIn5EoCB1

NOTE carefully: There are certain sectors where there is a lack of manpower. On the other hand there are many which are being discharged from their army service because they are not needed anymore.
Does anyone really think all the problems that the army has will be solved if ALL chareidim would go to serve IDF?
It's all political propaganda.

I feel like I keep seeing "all or nothing" through this entire thread. Either one must spend all day learning, or there is no Torah in your life.

Here, it's being asked if "all the problems will be solved."

Nope, we don't have Mashiach. So it's impossible to solve all of the problems. But I think it will go a long way to helping. Especially in a milchama like this one.

And it might just help solve the problem of hearing that your brother's living comfortably at home with kedusha is more important than my brother's life.

And maybe if more of the Charedi boys heard messages that they are still good boys if they serve in the IDF, they might stay Charedi. How is one supposed to stay frum if you keep hearing that anyone who serves in the IDF isn't frum anymore? Then, if they serve, why bother staying frum since they're already not frum by just serving?

You are telling your boys that just by serving they are worth nothing, then are acting surprised when, if they stop being frum, they live down to what you teach them.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:52 am

Is the army set up in a way that frum people can follow stringent halacha?
No.
So there is nothing to talk about.

↑ Aurora ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 6:53 am

amother Broom wrote:

Is the army set up in a way that frum people can follow stringent halacha?
No.
So there is nothing to talk about.

I think most of the bachurim in hesder programs might have what to say about this.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:06 am

amother Broom wrote:

Is the army set up in a way that frum people can follow stringent halacha?
No.
So there is nothing to talk about.

Again. For the millionth time. The army says that it wants and needs chareidi boys and understands that it has to create a framework for them within the army that is appropriate for them. I personally know very very high ranking frum officers in the army who are working with people inside the chareidi community to try and create such a framework and another poster also wrote about such an initiative. It is possible, but it has to be done through discussion and cooperation, not blanket statements of army = bad.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:07 am

Aurora wrote:

I think most of the bachurim in hesder programs might have what to say about this.

IIRC the hesder program is not stringent enough for chareidi bochurim. It's better than nothing but not quite ideal.

In any case I don't see the IDF being delighted with a huge chunk of its army in hesder.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:08 am

someone wrote:

Till then it's just talk that creates division and bad feelings.

amother

White

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:11 am

when the state was first established there was a deal they made that serious learners dont have to go to the army. the number being exempt kept increasing so they made a list of several serious yeshivos that were exempt (like chevron and ponovezh).
The way I heard it is that currently they want to draft majority of bachurim but some are still exempt (like ponovezh)
R Shteinman was of the opinion that if your not a serious learner then you should serve in the army so many who were followers of him did go.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:16 am

amother White wrote:

I heard someone say in the discussion on the law in the knesset foreign affairs and defense committee that when Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish made their original agreement there was a very small number of chareidim and a large state of emergency. Over the years the number of chareidim increased but we thought that the state of emergency had decreased. Now we have an enormous number of chareidim and a massive state of emergency, so we have to make a change.
The difference that people seem to miss is that the Chazon Ish understood that the Torah world had to be rebuilt after the Holocaust and that if all of the guys joining the army that would be the end of it. Ben Gurion's agreement to exempt people who learn full time applied at the time to a few hundred people. Now b"H thanks to the leadership of the Chazon Ish and the gedolim who followed him the Torah world in EY is thriving. The rhetoric as if its still 1948 and bachurim having to join the army would be the end of the Torah world is stam propoganda.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:17 am

amother Broom wrote:

Till then it's just talk that creates division and bad feelings.

But when people say, as you did, that there's nothing to talk about, that means that no solution will be found, because the only way to bring about real change is throughout cooperation. Like I wrote above about the hesder yeshivot

↑ iyar ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:30 am

SSR wrote:

I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but if we want to go along with your idea that “both biggest things of this whole war happened when there wasn’t as much consistent learning going on” then you proved the point of the other side in this debate.

You’re saying these incidents took place during bein hazmanim when there’s less learning. If we want to say learning protects, why would there be less learning at a time of danger?
If Torah learning is decreased to engage in hechsher mitzva, preparing for mitzvah requirements during the upcoming chagim which gain priority, then surely that protects as well. If Torah learning is decreased to relax and engage in recreational activities, how do you justify that at a time of sakana?
Soldiers protecting their nation don’t put down their weapons and take a snooze while the enemy is attacking.

↑ paperflowers ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:31 am

Aurora wrote:

When you said that there should be a choice for those who would prefer to learn full-time instead of serving.

What, you think that those serving wouldn't also love the chance to learn full time?

Okay, I hear why that would be hurtful. But my point wasn't that only chareidim deserve to learn Torah and that dati leumi do not or don't care. The point was that right now there are too few chareidim serving in the army and if more enlist then things balance out more. The facts on the ground are that at this point it time there are huge numbers of chareidim learning full time and not serving in the army and the chareidi culture is very against army service. In the dati leumi world it is not a contradiction to be a torah scholar and a soldier because the culture prizes both. Unfortunately to the chareidi world it does seem like a contradiction and I believe there needs to be a shift.

Is it your view that all chareidi men should serve or that more of them should serve?

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:32 am

someone wrote:

Nothing to talk about until the IDF and politicians sort themselves out and figure out exactly what they want.
Real change comes from letting go of rhetoric and commitment to unity.

amother

Lemonlime

Wed, Jun 26 2024, 7:33 am

amother Catmint wrote:

Whenever this comes up, I say the same thing.

If Charedim want to say that Torah protects, they should stand by their word. All Iron Dome installations will no longer fire $40k missiles to shoot down Hamas and Hezbollah and Iranian rockets flying towards Bnei Brak, Modiin Illit, Charedi areas of Bet Shemesh and Yerushalayim, Tsfat, etc. Yad Hashem is protecting you, so you don't need all the hishtadlus of the kofrim to keep you safe.

Well, what a ridiculous thing to say..

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