I am very curious about not making aliyah

amother

Blue ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:29 am

amother Ballota wrote:

I didn't say Chareidi, not sure where you got that from.
I said frum.
If a terrorist wanted to strike in, say, Chevron, what would he look for to ensure he gets a Jew and not an Arab?
And where did I say they care about what kind of Jews they kill?

1) Jews and Arabs live in different areas in most places in Israel. There are very few truly mixed neighborhoods.
2) If you live here long enough, you learn to spot the difference between Jews and Arabs even if dressed identical. I can't explain it, but I've learned to do it. It's something in the body language and stance. The Arabs for sure know how to.
3) The very very few cases of mistaken identity involved young, inexperienced attackers, in one case a 14 year old Arab girl stabbed another Arab in error, probably because she was "sheltered".
4) On 7th of October Hamas attacked also Israeli Arabs and Bedouin because they saw them as traitors for working for/with Jews. For example, they shot, seriously wounded and tied up an Arab doctor, all the while shouting at him that he was a traitor.

juggling ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:35 am

@Shabbatiscoming, either you're defining safety differently, or your argument is ignoring facts.

I, personally, believe Israel is the *best* place to live as a Jew. Perhaps it's also the best place for the Jewish people to thrive in the long term.

But in terms of being physically safe from bodily harm? I don't see how anyone can say Israel is safer than the US these days.

Israel was founded to be a safe haven for Jews. If you live in a country where Jews are persecuted for being Jewish, you always have a home in Israel.

But that home is not really secure. Yet. We are at war with hostile neighbors who live within our own borders! Yes, we have an army so we can protect ourselves. If we die at the hands of our enemies it is Al kidush Hashem and for a very noble cause. But people are still dying here fighting the fight.

I'm of the opinion that the State of Israel is a great bracha for the Jewish people. I think all Jewish people should want to be part of this incredible project. Come here to create an even safer, even stronger, home for the Jewish people. But don't come here for your personal safety, because that is not guaranteed.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:41 am

amother Ballota wrote:

You keep repeating yourself and so I keep repeating myself. They are not looking for noticably jewish looking jews. They kill and whomever is there as well dies and they dont care.
He wont look for anything to ensure he only gets a jew.
During the last war, one of the missles that was directed toward jerusalem ended up hitting the main water pipes in beit lechem. Thet DONT CARE.

↑ juggling ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:45 am

To the poster who asked about olim families whose sons were killed in the war:

I know several of those families. Of course it's hard. But those families chose to make aliyah because they wanted to be a part of this incredible project called the State of Israel. They did so knowing full well that one day their boys would be soldiers, and that the unspeakable might happen. Those families are broken-hearted at the loss of their beloved sons, but they are filled with pride that their sons died in the defense of Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael. It's not a contradiction.

I don't think any of them have for a second regretted aliyah. They didn't come here for safety. They came here on a mission or, perhaps, seeking a spiritually better life for their families. Their loved one being killed is tragic, and of course they wish it wouldn't have to have happened. But it doesn't at all negate their goals in making Aliyah.

Does that make sense?

↑ Success10 ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:45 am

juggling wrote:

Can't like this enough.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:51 am

juggling wrote:

Im not sure where ypu sae me talking about physical safety.

↑ juggling ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:56 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Im not sure where ypu sae me talking about physical safety.

In that case, you're defining safety differently than most of the posters on this thread. That's what they were talking about. Physical safety from antisemites. And you repeatedly stated that Israel is the safest place for a Jew.

What do you mean when you say that?

amother

Camellia

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 3:59 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

Such a beautiful post. Thank you for your chizuk! We are in the middle of planning aliyah.

I disagree that this was a beautiful post and I say this as someone who lives in Israel and loves it.

I'm so glad that aliyah has worked out well for that poster's family and I wish her and and you and anyone else making aliyah much Hatzlacha. But to suggest that people in chutz laaretz mitzvahs count less is offensive. I also find this highly idealised version of life in Israel about which many posters here wax lyrical off-putting. Yes, life is beautiful and meaningful and should be encouraged but it is also real and mundane, with real challenges and struggles and it isn't always pleasant. The bottom line is that's it's really not nice to suggest that most people making Aliyah are dysfunctional in some way. It is equally not nice to suggest that those living in Chul live meaningless, shallow lives. I'm assuming that we all do the best we can within our circumstances.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 4:04 am

juggling wrote:

I have not once in this thread said anything about israel being the safest place for jews. I went back and looked at my replies.
Where are you getting this from?

↑ Success10 ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 4:10 am

As far as safety goes, though, I do feel it's safer for my kids to play outside here on a day to day basis, as compared to chutz la'aretz. Less crime and crazies in smaller neighborhoods and yishuvim, as compared to the Tristate area.

The threat of terrorism is real and constant, though, and I'm not minimizing that.

↑ juggling ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 4:27 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Every time threads like this come up someone replies with what wrote above and specifically with what I bolded.

I dont understand because the STATE of israel aas literally formed so that ANY jew anywhere and at any time, that needs to run away, can!
Why is that a bad thing? Its not. Eretz Ysrael is there for us, whenever we need it.

This is what I was talking about. While you clarified that you aren't referring to the current war, you didn't clarify what you are referring to. I've seen you mention this position before, that Israel was founded as a safe haven for Jews after the Holocaust. And, while that is technically true, it doesn't speak to the Jews living in America today.

The OP of this thread asked why, in light of antisemitism in the US, every Jew isn't rushing to make Aliyah. We've had a bunch of similar threads over the past few months.

The answer, in a nutshell, is because the antisemitism in the US doesn't feel nearly as scary to them as living in Israel does.

It's true that Israel is a home for any Jew who needs a place to flee. And, yet, the Jews in America don't feel the need to flee. And if they did feel the need to flee, it's not clear that Israel would be the answer to their fears, as life in Israel comes with its own set of challenges.

In the spirit of Parashat Shelach, I feel I must clarify that I still think Israel is the *best* place for a Jew to live. However, that's only true because I don't believe personal physical safety is the barometer of what's best.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 5:45 am

juggling wrote:

I am talking about the fact that the jewish state was founded for one basic reason and that was to house any jew that needed a safe place to run to.
But over the years so many have made this country their home and they were not running from anything.
And I completely disagree with you about american jews. Yes, many many americans can not fathom living in Israel today. But there are so many olim from ameirca (and other countries) that do see the writing on the wall or they come purely because of their love for this land.

↑ someone ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 5:59 am

DrMom wrote:

I am disturbed by the number of Jews living in chu"l who don't even see living in Israel as a positive good, but rather, only as a last resort safety net if things get very very very bad where they currently are.

In 1933 Rav Kook gave a famous drasha about the three shofarot of redemption, which is still just as relevant today.
Anyone who isn't familiar with it can google it, I'm sure there are English summaries out there.

Last edited by someone on Sun, Jun 23 2024, 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Outerspace ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 6:03 am

someone wrote:

.
In 1933 Rav Kook gave a famous drasha about the three shofarot of redemption, which is still just as relevant today.
Anyone who isn't familiar with it can google it, I'm sure there are English summaries out there.

Oh my…

Please don’t tell me we are starting this again. It’s been rehashed over and over on Aliyah threads.
I think everyone here gave their answers to the OP and now this thread should be closed.

amother

↑ Burntblack ↓

Sun, Jun 23 2024, 6:08 am

someone wrote:

Here it is:
https://www.ravkooktorah.org/ROSH_65.htm