Tuition makes me hate being frum

amother

↑ Honeysuckle

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:06 am

I get that tuition is very expensive in some communities (not Lakewood where I live) and I completely agree that it's really hard to pay for it. I'm sure that you're one of the exceptions but personally I see many people who get tuition breaks, even here, and then lease a car instead of buying an older car, live in big houses, buy brand names for kids, go on vacations or use points for vacations instead of cashing them in and using them for tuition & so on.

If you would pay for full-time child care, 9- 4, for any of your kids, I guarantee it would be more than $1,000 a month. And often that $1,000 includes transportation which if you would have to be privately it might cost you another $800 a month.

Tuition should be put in the same category as groceries and housing- it's a necessity that's non-negotiable. That's why I always think it's extremely irresponsible when people take out a mortgage just because the bank allows them to without actually calculating their own expenses including the eventual tuition.

Trademark ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:08 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I love being frum. We gain so much from being frum. But yes, it does come with tuition.

"It is on the community to provide a place of learning for our kids." Since when? Hillel couldn't pay for Yeshiva one day so he climbed onto the skylight to listen in. He didn't say it's they're fault I can't pay. He certainly didn't say I want nothing more to do with Torah if I have to pay to be taught. He understood the value of learning.

We are hiring the schools to teach our children Torah. It is expensive and it is difficult.

Of course, you have the option to put your kids into public school. You would be giving up tuition, but the price you would be paying would be much higher.

IOW, Torah is worth the struggle.

Actually R' Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted universal education for boys and communal responsibility for the orphans and poor.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:29 am

Trademark wrote:

Actually R' Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted universal education for boys and communal responsibility for the orphans and poor.

the thing is the standards of that type of education is not what people expect now. I don't think there was computer labs, resource room, small teacher to child ratio, gym.... would people be ok going back to that. and then that still leaves girl education and as someone who only has daughters...

amother

↑ DarkYellow

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:32 am

Trademark wrote:

Actually R' Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted universal education for boys and communal responsibility for the orphans and poor.

If we were to institute communal responsibility for the poor I'm assuming nearly everyone would qualify.
How do you suggest the school then covers it's expenses? The 5 rich families in each community won't willingly support the schools.

amother

Clematis

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:34 am

amother Burntblack wrote:

I have never heard of a frum school barring entry to a kid because the parents couldn't pay. Yes, they'll harass the parents. But kick out the kids? Never.

When I was in school, any kid who didnt pay up the year couldn't take finals. it was very embarrassing. they came in and called the kid/s out of class

notshanarishona

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:40 am

Why is it on the community to provide subsidized schooling anymore than subsidized food or clothing or babysitting? All of these expenses break the bank and tsnius clothes are way overpriced. It is an individual obligation like everything else.

↑ Trademark ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:46 am

amother Sapphire wrote:

I'm just pointing out that there exists a communal responsibility for education.

In his times girls didn't receive a formal education.

amother

Nasturtium

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:40 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

This.

amother

↑ Forestgreen ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

But thats a normal expense. It is on the community to provide a place of learning for our kids. But what if we cant afford it?
Im crying rn from our expenses. Why is it fair that we have to live this way?

I think you missed the point.
Why is school different than rent?
I can understand resenting high tuition but don’t relate to resenting being frum because of that.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:47 pm

If more people would live on a lower standard than people wouldn't be spending so much on externals and maybe more people would be able to afford tuition leaving the tuition help for the people who actually need it. Because there are people who genuinely need it but there just can't be breaks for everyone.

My dc is one of the only ones in their class without the $120 "it" sweatshirt, yet I know for a fact most of them are getting tuition breaks whereas I am working like crazy to pay full tuition. Maybe if people would cut back on the clothing, shoes, eating out, cleaning help etc...more people wouldn't need as much assistance.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:47 pm

Thank you everyone. I was having a really rough night and tbh a really hard last year/ 1.5 years. We have had some unexpected expenses come up the last few days which put a huge strain on everything.
Bh at the end of the day I would never not send my kids to frum schools, but the price is just insane these days.
Thank you for helping to put things in perspective.

amother

Cadetblue ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:49 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

We do seem to feel an obligation as a community to to provide subsidized food and clothing and emergency medical care and roadside assistance, among other things. That's what Tomchei Shabbos, Yom Tov clothing distributions, Hatzolah, and Chaveirim are all about. We do feel a communal sense of responsibility.

Yet the one area where communal obligation is a historic requirement, we now claim must be the responsibility of each family, even when those numbers are completely impossible for the average family to manage.

Even public school is actually community funded.

amother

↑ OP

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:49 pm

amother Broom wrote:

That is not our problem personally.

amother

↑ Cadetblue ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:10 pm

amother Broom wrote:

It's a community problem. More people need assistance now because they are living above their means.

Part of the problem is that cutting out small expenses like sweatshirts doesn't make enough of a dent for people to feel motivated to do it.

If tuition was more or less affordable, and it was just a matter of that last $150 per month, many families would opt for the cheaper lease (often cheaper than buying even an older vehicle ironically) or skip the brand names or some of the Shabbos dips.

When you're thousands behind, there's a fatalistic attitude of we're not going to be able to pay it all anyhow, why should my kids suffer more? Kind of like how when unemployment paid better than minimum wage, people were disincentivized from getting a job. Or how the benefits "cliff" encourages people to stay underemployed rather than lose all of their benefits in one fell swoop and end up in worse financial shape.

amother

Caramel ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:10 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

Completely agree.

Back in the day there was a one room cheder that was taught by the rabbi and except for the brightest boy in the town, education typically would have stopped at about the 8th grade level - if not sooner.

It really was comparable to the kind of frontier schools the US had which were one room with a not very well educated teacher - and typically also limited to lower grades - if that.

There is not any way to get the "community" to fund schools given that most people would not send their children to a community school that accepted everyone in the community.

I think some of the Chassidish communities do actually have the community supporting the schools but they have more homogenous communities with a population that can actually support the community school and the ability to acquire the funding.

Also I think - at least from what I have read on imamother that certain smaller OOT communities actually fund their schools. But they also have few schools and so people send to the one or two schools in the community.

amother

↑ Broom ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:13 pm

amother Cadetblue wrote:

Nah that's just an excuse. If people would stop spending so much and cut back on cleaning help, eating out, takeout, designer clothing and shoes etc ... they would def have more money for tuition and every dollar helps. But most people don't want to do that. So many threads here of people going into debt for cleaning help. Or so that their kids could have the it shoes. Obviously this isn't everyone and there are ppl who live very basic, but it's def a lot of people.

amother

↑ Cadetblue ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:20 pm

amother Broom wrote:

As someone who doesn't have cleaning help, does not eat out, doesn't buy designer clothing or shoes... this assumption hurts the ones who are struggling the most.

(I will also point out that many people have told us that in our circumstances we SHOULD have cleaning help, and that if I described some of our challenges I'm sure people would tell us to buy takeout meals every so often.)

If tuition was affordable for even folks like me, we could work on shifting community pressures to support paying tuition over that type of spending. When tuition is out of reach for a significant majority of the population, there's a problem.

amother

Viola ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:24 pm

1,000 per kid per year is way less than people spend on simchas per child. So why is it that tuition get all the gate, instead of elaborate simchas?

I'm not directing this at you, op. But the view towards tuition costs are widespread, but so haven't seen the hatred much for the things we choose to spend on that cost even more.