S/O Vegan Restaurants ok?

amother

↑ PlumPink ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 7:27 am

Comptroller wrote:

I see a lot of black and white thinking in this thread.

there are people who have to travel, for some reasons, and maybe it could help them when they could eat in a vegan restaurant on occasion. Judging them wholesale as "not keeping kosher", like people did on this thread seems a bit exagerated to me.

I understand that there are users on this site who never step outside the 4 amos of their stetl where kosher food is readily available. Let me tell you: not everybody lives like this.

And please, don't come and accuse me of eating in vegan restaurants without a hechsher, I belong to the category who might have to travel to places where no ready made kosher food is available, and I go to extreme lengths to cook in my hotel room in such cases. That's why I know that it is a terrible headache, and why I understand that not everybody would do that and why I advocate against judging persons in such circumstances harshly.

Maybe concentrate your attention on your tzitzis, your life will not become better by judging others.

And if you are so jealous of those who eat in vegan restaurants, just try it yourself and that's it. Don't live by what society around you imposes on you, just for spectacle.

What type of Judaism is this? Who allows this? We have to travel to remote areas all the time. We pack food or buy the basic ou products in stores. As a frum jew you need to keep kosher, travel does not allow you to eat not kosher. Many non frum eat non kosher just like they don’t keep shabbos and other things. Frum people keep kosher, if they don’t then they aren’t frum. It’s a basic part of being frum. This is not black and white thinking or jealousy. This is a frum site and we can say it’s not kosher because it’s not according to every frum community and rabbi and source. How can you say it’s ok for a frum person?

amother

Scarlet ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:03 am

Comptroller wrote:

the availability of kosher food doesn't change the halacha of what's kosher. I live in a place without any kosher stores or restaurants-that doesn't make the vegan places in the area kosher.
"not keeping kosher" isn't a judgment, it's a statement of fact-if someone considers vegan food kosher, then the fact (not judgement) is that they're wrong. If I say they're bad people, or careless, etc-that's called a judgement.
when I had to go to a non-kosher restaurant, I was told not to even drink water, so that it would be clear that I'm not eating there AT ALL. but I wouldn't say someone who does get an apple or cup or water or can of soda at a business meal isn't keeping kosher-because THAT is not fact.

besides, I'm sure there are "vegan" places that aren't actually vegan, just like places can advertise as "kosher" and not be. is the person eating "vegan" instead of kosher checking who the "mashgiach" is or what vegan "hechsher" they have? because if someone eats every item with a "K" on it, then they're also not keeping kosher (fact, not judgement)

amother

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Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:34 am

Lets_Eat_Pie wrote:

I'd also point out that there are some vegan restaurants (at least in NYC) that have hechshers. They don't necessarily advertise that they are kosher because frum Jews aren't their target consumers. And yes, not everyone would hold by the hechshers. But some do.

Here's a Mexican one in Manhattan that I'm looking forward to trying. You've got to dig through to the FAQ on their site to get details of their kosher certification.

https://sentirnyc.com/frequent.....ions/

We aren’t talking about those few that have some sort of hechsher.

amother

↑ PlumPink ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 11:45 am

Lets_Eat_Pie wrote:

But my point is you don't always know which vegan restaurants might have hechshers - some have but don't advertise.

We aren’t assuming. Me personally I asked people if the one they went to has one and they said no it doesn’t need one. I think most of use mean that situation. That there are many that simply believe it’s not necessary and they will eat at any all over the world without checking or worrying about it. The ones that have a hechsher are known to have one. I know one that a lot of frum people go to, I also know it has a hechsher. It’s not usually a secret.

↑ Comptroller ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:44 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

Yes, this is exactly the black and white thinking I was referring to. Bingo!

↑ Comptroller ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:55 pm

amother Scarlet wrote:

That's not true.

For once, Rabbis in olden times used to passken whether, say, a chicken was kosher or treif according to the finances of the person who asked. Back then, people used to purchase living chickens, have them slaughtered, and if they found a minor issue that could cause them to be treif, a Rabbi would passken treif for a rich man who could afford to buy a new chicken and kosher for a poor man who could not afford to buy another chicken.

Furthermore, whether you are strict with chalav akum or not also depends on availability of chalav israel and there are plenty adaptations for individual situations. 30 years ago, in Europe, Rabbis paskened that formula without hechsher was OK if the child needed it, just not to mix the utensils used for it with the rest of kitchen equipment.

Your story that you would not even drink water in a non kosher restaurant is a very extreme chumra.

There is a whole gamut, from drinking cold in a non-kosher restaurant, drinking hot in glasses, eating cold, untreated dishes, etc.

And as far as hechsherim go: Maybe it is an inyan of darkei shalom to recognize other hechsherim? And, as far as incidents go, those hechsherim who pride themselves in being most "strict" might not auitomatically be those who have least incidents.

There was the famous chicken crisis, and the "kosher" milk from treif cows crisis, and there even was once a crisis in Europe where packages with a very strict hechsher contained cheese with bits of true ham. And the hechsher still exists and is still considered "strict".

amother

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Thu, Jun 20 2024, 12:59 pm

Comptroller wrote:

As a child of a shochet you seem really misguided. Perhaps you speak on topics you aren’t so knowledgeable about. There are rules in shechting which things are extra which are musts etc.. you don’t get to make that up though. Spreading false info on here is very dangerous. But alas you seem stuck in your ways.

amother

↑ Scarlet ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:40 pm

Comptroller wrote:

You do have a point. Availability does have an effect on what one may eat. It still doesn't change basic, halacha, though. halachically, one may eat non kosher food if their life is at stake-but that IS the halacha, it's not CHANGING the halacha. (and I'm aware that's not the example you gave.)
And I did say that not drinking water isn't the halacha. The rav I spoke to did not even present it as halacha. (in fact, he initially said it would be ok to have a drink and then said, "actually, it would be better not to")

keym

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:47 pm

amother Lotus wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think the word "treif" strictly refers to non-kosher meat.

So non-kosher vegetarian food is "nonkosher" but not "treif".

So some people (more like masoratim or maybe dati lite) might mean "I don't eat treif", not "I only eat kosher"

If we're going to get THAT technical.
Then tried means kosher animals that when checking them after the shechita they were found to be treif.
Chicken or meat from the grocery store is neveila not treif.
Ham or shellfish are not treif.
Milk and meat are not treif.

At least not technically

tulip3 ↓

Thu, Jun 20 2024, 1:54 pm

Comptroller wrote:

I believe in halacha, and I believe that there is some flexibility in halacha, which also depends on doability.

I was quite shocked by this thread opened by this daughter-in-law who was all outraged that her mother-in-law went to eat in a vegan restaurant without a hechsher during her vacation. How is this her business? How has she the right to judge her mother-in-law? What about kibud av va em?

The poor mother-in-law told her casually that she went to this restaurant. She did not ask her to come along, she did not take her children to this restaurant, how is this DIL's business?

But DIL seemed to suffer a lot, and the suffering seemed partly due to the fact that she would like to do it too, if she was allowed to, and she needed reasssurance that it was completely forbidden from the crowd here.

If not doing it is so hard for her, let her do it, and relieve herself, so that she does not need to judge her mother in law so harshly. That's what I mean.

No, I don't think that the world will crumble if she does it. No, I don't think that Hashem will reject her if she does it.

However, according to the reactions on this thread - and her thread - it is plausible that her social environment will reject her if she does it.

So what she does or doesn't do is determined more by her social environment than by actual halacha.

In my view, this is an unhealthy way of living religion, also a way that opens the gates for hypocrisy (I can do it, as long as no-one from my social circle will know). Her religion should focus on her relationship to hashem and to halacha, not on what her MIL does and not on what her social circles think about her.

Full disclosure: I cook for myself when I am in a place without a kosher restaurant, but I use chalav akum and I drink teas and coffees out of glasses, and this helps me cope. Without that, I don't know if I could do it. So I am sure that there is a whole crowd here who would say that chalav akum is completely assur.

Very well said. If everyone took care of their jealousy there wouldnt be this outrage about what others do.