What will happen if I melt the butter instead of

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amother

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:04 pm

cutting it into the flour?

scruffy

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:05 pm

You won't get a flaky dough, it will be greasy.

For pastries, butter should be as cold as possible when working it in.

amother

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:07 pm

scruffy wrote:

You won't get a flaky dough, it will be greasy.

For pastries, butter should be as cold as possible when working it in.

it melts anyway at one point?

either sitting out or when baking?

scruffy

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

it melts anyway at one point?

either sitting out or when baking?

The dough should stay cold when you are working with it as well.

It should melt when baking, this helps create lift between layers of flour and makes it flaky and delicate.

amother

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:11 pm

scruffy wrote:

The dough should stay cold when you are working with it as well.

It should melt when baking, this helps create lift between layers of flour and makes it flaky and delicate.

so there is never a dairy free alternative to this?

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:11 pm

OP, Don't.
Guess you are doing a pie crust or similar and therefore you need to cut the fat and quickly mix it with the flour. This should be done quickly and dough should be then put in the fridge to rest.
Don't overwork or the pastry will shrink.

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

so there is never a dairy free alternative to this?

Of course there is. Parve margarine.

amother

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:13 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

it says to rest for 30 min - but doesnt say fridge.

scruffy

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:13 pm

amother OP wrote:

so there is never a dairy free alternative to this?

Margarine, or chilled coconut oil should work ok.

amother

Peachpuff

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:15 pm

I think the best way to learn and really understand is try.

When I was in school for food and nutrition, they had us bake cookies -same recipe, but one with Crisco, one oil, one butter, one margarine, one overworked margarine…….

It was one of the most meaningful cooking classes I ever had

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

it says to rest for 30 min - but doesnt say fridge.

If you make a pie shell put it in the fridge.
These type of baked goods do well when cold and if you want to prepare a day before it's even better.

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:18 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Which ones came out the best in terms of taste?

Amarante

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:20 pm

You can NOT (ETA MY TYPO) Very Happy

do this and still get a delicious flaky crust.

The reason why shortening (butter) needs to be solid and cold is that it remains solid for a while in the oven and the longer you can postpone it becoming liquid, the flakier and more delicious the crust.

Oil based crusts are pretty awful as they are soggy and lack that delicious crisp flakiness that is the best part of a pie to me.

Same is true of cookies and other pastries that require creaming the solid shortening (butter) with sugar to create air pockets and most are enhanced by chilling the cookies before putting in the oven to prolong the melting point since the temperature is colder.

I use Miyoko's European style Plant Butter for all baking and it is a really good substitute for real butter

https://www.miyokos.com/collec.....utter

Last edited by Amarante on Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Coral

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:22 pm

amother OP wrote:

so there is never a dairy free alternative to this?

Different types of pareve fat that are solid at room temperature will work. You can use margarine or some healthier types of margarine. Don’t try using anything that’s liquid at room temperature.

amother

Peachpuff

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:24 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Which ones came out the best in terms of taste?

Hands down butter (but it produces a very flat cookie due to its low melting point)
But at home I only bake pareve.

Amarante

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:28 pm

amother OP wrote:

so there is never a dairy free alternative to this?

Solid shortening like Crisco make a flaky crust - it was actually first introduced as a substitute for lard which purportedly makes a very flaky crust. A lot of old British meat pie recipes uses lard.

Shortening doesn't have the delicious taste of butter pastry which is why a lot of more modern crust recipes use butter or a combination of butter and shortening. ETA I believe Crisco makes butter flavored shortening but I have never used it. The only time I have used shortening is with this pie crust recipe and I think a ginger or molasses cookie recipe to use up the Crisco.

Frankly I wouldn't worry that much about whether the "fat" you use is not supposed to be as healthy as others because how much pie are you eating on a regular basis. Whatever the fat you use, it is a food that should be eaten in moderation.

This recipe is fool proof and produces a very flaky result - You can re-roll it without degrading the quality which is different from other crusts which need to be handled as little as possible or they lose their flaky quality

Evidently the egg and the vinegar have some kind of chemical reaction which results in a fool proof flaky crust. I have seen variants which sub vodka.

Best to refrigerate as long as possible as the colder the better when you roll out and put in the oven. The dough freezes well.

No Fail Pie Crust (Pareve)

INGREDIENTS

3 cups flour
1 cup shortening - Crisco or equivalent
1⁄2 teaspoon salt
1 large egg, beaten
5 tablespoons cold water
1 teaspoon vinegar

DIRECTIONS

Cut together flour, shortening and salt until it resembles small peas.

Combine the egg, water and vinegar and gradually add to flour mixture.

Stir just until moistened and a soft dough forms.

Divide into 2 disks.

Wrap and refrigerate until ready to use.

Roll out and use with your favorite pie recipe!

Last edited by Amarante on Wed, Jun 05 2024, 5:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

Amarante

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:32 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Hands down butter (but it produces a very flat cookie due to its low melting point)
But at home I only bake pareve.

If you cream well and freeze the cookies on the cookie sheet for a while, you minimize spreading quite a bit.

The creaming creates air pockets which helps the structure of the cookie from collapsing and spreading and by decreasing the temperature of the butter you prolong the time before the butter melts - which is why the cookie typically spreads.

ETA - That is why you don't skimp on creaming time. If the recipe says to cream for five minutes then cream for five minutes. Electric mixers revolutionized our ability to bake fancy stuff and have it turn out well. Can you imagine beating an elegant cake by hand - the egg beater was considered a revolutionary labor saving device which enabled even people without cooks to bake a cake occasionally LOL

Last edited by Amarante on Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:32 pm

Amarante wrote:

You can do this and still get a delicious flaky crust.

The reason why shortening (butter) needs to be solid and cold is that it remains solid for a while in the oven and the longer you can postpone it becoming liquid, the flakier and more delicious the crust.

Oil based crusts are pretty awful as they are soggy and lack that delicious crisp flakiness that is the best part of a pie to me.

Same is true of cookies and other pastries that require creaming the solid shortening (butter) with sugar to create air pockets and most are enhanced by chilling the cookies before putting in the oven to prolong the melting point since the temperature is colder.

I use Miyoko's European style Plant Butter for all baking and it is a really good substitute for real butter

https://www.miyokos.com/collec.....utter

I wish I could get a good Parve solid fat in Israel! The best I can find is Mazola margarine in my grocery Speechless

amother

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:39 pm

Amarante wrote:

You can NOT (ETA MY TYPO) Very Happy

there are many chees cakes with crusts calling for crushed graham crackers, tea biscuits, vanilla cookies - these cookies are all crisp without marge or butter and the recipe says crush and miz with butter and its really good. is this what you mean soggy and not good?

trying to understand

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Jun 05 2024, 12:42 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Hands down butter (but it produces a very flat cookie due to its low melting point)
But at home I only bake pareve.

I'm so pleased to hear you said butter Smile

I don't know what fat you use but over here all margarine are awful. The best is Mazola so far. Imagine what it was to bake Parve before Mazola arrived here. It was just awful.

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