Tuition Breaks and Tomchei Shabbos

↑ chestnut ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:45 pm

amother Green wrote:

The crux of the problem is exactly what OP highlighted. Once you share your private info, they will them take it a step further and start deciding what's needed and what's not. How can they even think that it's within their scope to define if someone needs 2 weeks of therapy versus 4. Or if my food spending is too much without understanding that I have a highly allergic child that causes my good bill to be significantly higher than average.

Are the poorer folks now going to need to get the schools permission to simply live their lives? Will they need to run every outliers by the school board to maintain their discount. It's absurd.

The ones who are gaming the system will hide their stuff. The ones who truly need it will be humiliated and have to deal with someone governing their lives.

I can't see how any sane adult can support this.

I definitely understand how having to show cc statements is invasive. I'm yet to hear a suggestion for school to avoid liers.
I disagree that sharing cc statements is automatically an invitation to micromanage that family's budget and expenses. Just as sharing bank statements isn't ($4K for a CC bill? Reduce it to $3K and here's your extra $1K/month for tuition)

amother

↑ Apple ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:46 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

And how does putting a lock on your door prevent the bad guys from breaking in? They can pick the lock, break down the door, or go in thru a window.

The answer is it offers another layer of (imperfect) protection.

I can tell you forsure that fewer people are applying for aid with the new system. That means that *some* people have decided that while it's simple and easy to fill out a form and check the "no" box when asked if you went on vacation, it's a whole different level to be scheming with multiple cc's all year trying to stay a step ahead of the tuition committee. Some people will just give in and pay.

What do you think is the percentage of parents who can afford to pay tuition but would rather jet off to Bermuda?

And what do you think is the percentage of parents who honestly are struggling to live their lives and for whom tuition is an exorbitant expense?

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:49 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

You have no idea if some of these folks are now in worse financial shape because they chose not to disclose. People can have very private info that they absolutely can't share.

The school can pat themselves on their backs thinking they did good. But do they truly know how many families are now spiraling because of it.

Ftr, it doesn't take much to scheme put credit card bills. It is so easy and a quick fix. It takes them a minute to organize themselves around it. You don't need to be clever or smart to figure this out. Even a child can figure this one out

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:50 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Having fewer people apply does not mean fewer people actually need.
You just may have more desperate people going into debt because they don't want to share with schools, particularly secretaries and board members (whom HIPAA doesn't apply) that they go to psychiatric and psychologist and urologist and such.

amother

↑ Eggplant ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:52 pm

amother Apple wrote:

Hard to say. But I know that I personally spoke to the tuition aid office in my school. They told me that since they implemented these new rules far fewer families are applying for aid.

So apparently there's things on people's statements that they know would disqualify them or don't want the school to see. Is it as blatant as an expensive trip to Bermuda? Probably not. Maybe it's very excessive clothing shopping at high end stores. Maybe there's lots of dining at fancy restaurants. maybe it's buying expensive tickets to ballgames. Maybe it's buying expensive furniture. Who knows exactly. But it's something.

boysrus

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:55 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Please. Far fewer families are applying for aid because they just cant emotionally handle the invasion of their privacy. Thats all it is. And now more families who really needed aid are struggling more than ever. Good job tuition committee (sarcasm alert)

amother

↑ Bronze ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:55 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Most likely it is NONE of what you are saying. They're not hiding luxuries. They're hiding very, very private things that cannot be disclosed. If you have no idea of what I'm talking about then consider yourselves lucky.

The people I know who spend on the luxuries you stated above do NOT apply for tuition breaks and consider it demeaning to even fill out the scholarship application

amother

↑ Eggplant ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:55 pm

amother OP wrote:

I agree with you. There's no good solution. Either the school relaxes the process of applying for aid people take advantage, or they make it more strict and make the process invasive. Any other choice?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:57 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Or the frequent visits to the urologist for one of their children who would be absolutely mortified if anyone besides the Dr knew that they were dealing with a weak urine flow and incontinence. In fact the only way that the parents were able to get the child to agree to see the Dr was by swearing that no one will find out.
Or fill in some other incredibly private situation.

It's mind boggling to me that you assume the parents are hiding a trip to Bermuda and not any private medical situation.

amother

↑ Bronze ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:58 pm

I also think the schools are dumb by destroying relationships with parents. Maybe one day in the future when my kids are older I will be able to afford a little more and can give a donation
Bilut I don't plan on ever giving them a penny after they treated me in such a disgusting and dehumanizing way.
My parents and in-laws are the same way.
It might benefit from the schools in the long run if they treat us a little better

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 1:59 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

What does halacha say.
If the choice is potentially humiliating someone or giving someone money that doesn't deserve it.
I know what my Torah says.
It's beyond me that school boards think they have a different Torah.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

Just think about how many ways they can use your info against you. They can even figure out what cell phones you have in the house based on your the amount of your phone bill.

What about your donations? They can see if you donated your maaser to RCCS and demand that all maaser should be coming to them in place of your tuition.

What about rehab or psych care. Do you think they'll treat the parents same if they know one of the parents received such treatment.

What about SB issues - cc can lend insight to that too.

Can you imagine if someone pay dues to a medical organization for a private genetic condition affecting their family. Why should anyone be privy to that?

And then what happens if someone is asked for shidduch info and they disclose - or just dissuade the other party based on their knowledge?

There is a reason why privacy is crucial and the government protects that. There is so much room for abuse, that it's mind boggling.

Just because a person requests a discount doesn't mean they need to be stripped naked (figuratively).

amother

↑ Bronze

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

Not just medical, maybe mental/psychiatric... maybe a parent or child needs to spend time in rehab...or struggling with addiction...

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:06 pm

amother Bronze wrote:

Not just medical, maybe mental/psychiatric... maybe a parent or child needs to spend time in rehab...or struggling with addiction...

This is a fun game. Listing all potential privacy concerns.
Teen pregnancy
Mental breakdown
STDs
Abortion (which is actually criminal in some states)

amother

↑ Green ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:07 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

There are other ways. They can ask for parents to give something in return. They can offer a checklist of services and then have the family choose one that works for them.

That's just one example. There are other ways to go about it too. Perfection is impossible but there is a way to work out a healthy balance.

Side note - they can also put upgrades and extra services up for votes. If the parents don't want it, why should they pay for it? I think plenty of parents don't need the fancy new building or the heavy duty new playground. We also don't need so many extra curricular activities and they can cut out the many melava malkahs, shabbatons, complicated costly projects that the kids can't do themselves etc..

Put them up for votes and let the majority decide. Parents shouldn't be forced to pay for stuff that they don't want.

amother

Amaryllis

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:09 pm

Payments to embryo storage facilities, inpatient psych facilities, marriage therapists, fertility treatments...there are so many private yet crucial essentials people put on their CCs
Asking to see it is not only demeaning its dehumanizing. It's treating people like a file, and not understanding that there's an actual person behind the numbers.
Horrible.

I don't even have any private payments on my cc and still would never agree to this.

amother

↑ Apple ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:10 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

Make any discounts a loan and require it to be paid back over time.

Require parents to sign a document showing that they understand that taking an undeserved discount is stealing according to Torah, and if the school finds reason to believe that they were misled, they can (and will) take the parents to Beis Din.

Or let Hashem punish the cheaters and incentivize honesty.

amother

↑ Apple ↓

Tue, May 14 2024, 2:29 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

That's like requiring a rectal exam at every urgent care or emergency room visit and then being proud that fewer people seem to be getting sick.