Please explain to me what wanting woman to Lein Megilla is

amother

↑ Bluebell ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:02 pm

amother Blueberry wrote:

yk tefillah - a women is clearly exempt from time based mitzvos because of her privilege of dealing with children. a man is not. I would not take away anything from the chiyuv of a man on that day to have a woman daven. you can maybe convince me that woman should hire outside help to watch her kids so she can go to shul but not that a man should 'share the burden'.

I agree that shuls can be more accommodating to women I am just not sure what you are specifically thinking of.

I hear woman can be encouraged to learn torah.. but pasken? idk. I mean if you say halacha allows it then its not a bad thing but if my rabbanim are not advocating for this then I will follow them in this way.

Men would still daven all the Tefillos they are required to. Just quicker, and maybe starting earlier. You realize women don’t have any chiyuv in taking care of children as well, right?

ETA- slaves are also exempt, do you believe that that’s because of children too?

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:13 pm

amother Bluebell wrote:

Slaves have a master who has a legal right to control how they spend their time.
Women are obligated to care for children.

amother

↑ Bluebell ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:14 pm

amother Smokey wrote:

Slaves have a master who has a legal right to control how they spend their time.
Women are obligated to care for children.

It is 100% false that women are obligated to care for children from a Halachick perspective. Maybe under certain circumstances to nurse, but I doubt this applies when we have formula.

↑ dancingqueen

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:23 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

Yes, men tend to lein in more of a chant while women tend to sing the leining in a more tuneful manner. Speaking in broad sweeps, of course, as some men wax positively operatic while some women are more mono-tonal. But in general...

Yentl is a reference to Isaac Bashevis Singer's Yiddish story "Yentl der Yeshiva Bocher" which was made into the film Yentl with Barbara Streisand in the title role. It's about a girl whose thirst for learning leads her to disguise herself as a boy to attend yeshiva.

You are right, it was my mistake. Golde is the wife from Fiddler on the Roof, which is what I was thinking of since that poster kept talking about Tradition. But I guess Yentl is apropos to this conversation too!

amother

↑ Blueberry ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:32 pm

ok so wether or not women are obligated to take care of their children (which like ?? because who is supposed to ) doesnt change the fact that they are exempt from time based mitzvos.

so specifically in the example of YK davening it makes no sense to in any way minimize a mans chiyuv of tefillah, whether by hurrying it or whatever... in order to allow a woman to daven.

the most you can convince me here is that a woman can hire a non jewish helper or younger girl helper for the day to babysit so she can go.

amother

↑ Blueberry ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:36 pm

amother Bluebell wrote:

please clarify this - no chiyuv?? so who exactly is supposed to be taking care of children?

as far as I see it Gd created a father and a mother who both have an obligation to their children. but if BOTH of them were given the heavy obligations of time based mitzvos and torah learning then children would be neglected and SO women are exempt from these obligations in order to take care of children..
why is that so hard to understand?? and why is that looked at as a bad thing??
raising children is so valuable and so important that a woman is even required and allowed to forgo so many mitzvos for this!!!

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:36 pm

essie14 wrote:

There is nothing halachically wrong with a woman speaking in front of men.
That's a social construct.
In non yeshivish circles, women speak at their family smachot. Women speak in shul in front of men.

Women lein megila for other women. How are the 2 things comparable? I don't understand your question. The women I know who lein only do it for other women. No men are involved.

I understand it’s not your way, but one can definitely make a halachic argument that a woman should not speak in shul in front of men. It’s not a social construct. It’s a halachic issue that your rabbis might rule differently on. For more clarity, ask your own halachic authorities to clarify what would be the arguments against a woman speaking in front of a group of men. It doesn’t have the same strictness as them singing in front of men but it’s not across the board considered a benign or acceptable thing.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:43 pm

amother Bluebell wrote:

Women don't have an obligation to take care of children?? Yes we do!

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 3:29 pm

amother Smokey wrote:

Just because something might not be benign or acceptable does NOT mean it is a halachic issue. It can and many times is, a social norm.

Please explain what is actually assur about a woman speaking in front of a man. Speaking, not singing.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 3:35 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Women have no halachic chiyuv to watch their children.

Yes we are obligated to look after children, that's the reason we're not obligated in time bound mitzvos. We get as much s'char for changing nappies on Yom Kippur as the men do for davening in shul all day.

amother

Powderblue ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 3:49 pm

amother Smokey wrote:

It's not halachic. It's cultural.

honey36 ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:07 pm

amother Powderblue wrote:

It's not halachic. It's cultural.

Sure it's halachik

See: Shulchan Aruch EH 21:1

Where he basically says stay far away from women. He even uses the double lashon of "m'eod m'eod" which he doesn't do very often.

This is not some obscure or chassidish source. It's the shulchan aruch.

Sure there are probably other sources who disagree, but don't claim it's all cultural, unless you think the shulchan aruch is a "cultural" sefer that has nothing to do with halacha.

↑ chanatron1000

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:09 pm

amother White wrote:

Yes. In my community unless you happen to be a woman with a strong desire to Lein the megilla, the thought would never even probably cross your mind. And if it did, you would assume women can’t do it or that it’s not proper for women to do it.

I have no desire to lein. I want to hear a woman leining. Because I don't want to have to listen from the other side of a mechitza.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:10 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

I have no desire to lein. I want to hear a woman leining. Because I don't want to have to listen from the other side of a mechitza.

Why not? Assuming you can hear clearly that is.

↑ tichellady ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:40 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

I guess that's the underlying theological difference of opinions between us.

It seems that if you saw Reform rabbis advocating to change a minhag and have men light shabbos candles or something like that, you might think that it is wonderful for them. You also wouldn't be opposed to your community following suit if there were people who wanted it or felt empowered by the idea. After all, it doesn't break any halacha.

I, on the other hand, would not respect the reform changes, even if it seems nice. I would be skeptical and even oppose the idea in my own community because I think it should take a lot more to change a long standing minhag.

I guess there are deep theological and ethical differences between us and we will both think our way of thinking is correct.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. That’s the only difference between us here. I don’t see how theology or ethics have anything to do with anything here. Reform Jews have very little to do with Halacha and certainly don’t care about minhag so I think fretting about them breaking minhag in order to keep Halacha is just bizarre.

↑ tichellady ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:41 pm

honey36 wrote:

In our society where men and women do talk and work together etc this is clearly not the practice.

amother

↑ White ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:46 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

I have no desire to lein. I want to hear a woman leining. Because I don't want to have to listen from the other side of a mechitza.

I’ve been to places where a man leins for women only and he’s in the same room as the women. The mechitza is to separate the men from socializing with the women. But when it’s all women, I think that the man can be in the same room leining the Megillah.

↑ honey36 ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:55 pm

tichellady wrote:

In our society where men and women do talk and work together etc this is clearly not the practice.

Just because it's "not the practice" doesn't mean it's not a halachik issue at all. Or that people who are more stringent are making up rules based on nothing or that it's all "purely cultural."

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Tue, Mar 26 2024, 5:05 pm

honey36 wrote:

My oot BY (which went by Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetzky as their posek) had women speakers often, with our male (yeshivish) principals and often fathers in the audience.

Sarah Schnirer spoke in front of mixed audience (and sat at the dais with men, who were often the pre-eminent rabbanim of pre-war Europe).

Rebbetzin Jungreis addressed mixed audiences, nobody once ever claimed there was a halachic issue.

Etc....