Tuition - is this normal??

↑ Clarissa ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 9:24 am

I totally empathize with those who didn't get any FA, we applied and were turned down, as well. Still, as I said, there's a limited amount of money available at any school for FA. Some schools don't even have a specific amount of money designated solely for FA, and people who need help must share the money with other expenditures, including salaries and building maintenance. Even schools that have a fund dedicated to nothing but FA will have a finite amount of money, and frum schools are often likely to have many families in need, due to large families in the community.

OP, as I said I empathize and have been in the same boat, but the fact that your family has made donations can't be a factor in the calculations involved in making these determinations. If family A has this much money and family B has the same, they don't give an advantage to family A because their extended family has made donations. These decisions must be made blindly to be fair.

As awful as it feels to have to agonize over paying your child's tuition (and I do understand this feeling, as our tuition is unbelievably high), we need to remember that the school has a certain amount of money, and they use it to pay the teachers, pay insurance, buy supplies, maintain the building, sponsor certain special events, etc. They do want people to go who are at all income levels, because education is for everyone, but there will always be people who get a negative response when they apply for FA. I was very disappointed when we didn't get.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 9:33 am

I will reiterate: these days, day school tuition is a rich man's treat. If you have 4 children, you can expect the first $60-$100K of your pre tax earnings to go towards yeshiva tuition, depending on where you live. There is no solution other than for everyone to be earning a mint. 1/2 a mint if they are frugal and able to live simply. Or, be "to the manor born" with generous parents and in-laws.
The bottom line is that the school needs to be paid, just as Shoprite and the mortgage need to be paid. So far (I was in the loop since 1987) nothing drastic has happened. All the talk of charter schools in the am and Jewish school in the pm did not pan out. All those who threatened Public School (I was one of them) backed down for whatever reason (in our case the school saw the light as far as our finances went). Not too many even bother to kid themselves about home-schooling a bunch of children for any length of time. So far, nothing has changed. However they do it - schools have continued to be in business and people have been coughing up as much money as possible. We were told for years that change was coming - it's not here yet.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 9:45 am

Clarissa, this is a community school in a chareidi type area, not a fancy Manhattan private school. What that means is that it has an obligation to educate the children of the community it serves, and to do so within a budget that is reasonable for the parent base to support. Unlike a fancy Manhattan private school which says, the sky's the limit on our budget, and we'll provide the children with the best of everything - those who can afford it will pay, and a few will receive aid, and whoever else comes will be turned away. Such a school thinks of itself and its reputation and its future. It does not feel an obligation to a community, but to the ideal of providing the best education.

Our school was managing fine before, and our tuition was $3600 per child. Now, in these economic times when my family can no longer scrape by the way we used to, when most families are struggling to afford food, they decided to move into a larger facility and hire a slew of new directors and principals, which the school managed without before just fine. Soon after the news of these new hires and this move, they sent around a notice of financial emergency that they are in danger of not meeting their budget, and they made a huge appeal. If those principals are all not paying tuition either, then we have an even greater deficit. It just wasn't the right time for this expansion of staff and facility! As much as a school wants to grow, and *I* want the school to grow, waiting another year or two would have been prudent.

For the record, I truly appreciate that these moves were for the benefit of the children, but just as I have to live within my means, so does a community school.

costanza

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 10:11 am

The main people who are suffering are the middle class. The very rich don't feel the pain of increased tuitions. Those who get financial assistance, though in difficult financial positions, pay what they can pay and then receive help. It's those in the middle who get squeezed more and more each year. I'm convinced there has to be a breaking point, but it hasn't come yet. I'm fearful that many are living on lines of credit.

What concerns me, is that the Boards of Directors of many schools are made up of the rich. I don't think they truly appreciate what some of us go through and sacrifice in order to send our kids to school. Decisions like building buildings and expanding facilities and hiring more staff are made by people who are not used to doing without. I agree with everything the OP has said and I sympathize.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 11:21 am

How about this?

We have 4 kids and pay about $40k in tuition. We are upper middle class - both working, which of course also adds to our expenses for day care, camp in the summer, etc. etc.. So altogether between day care after school, camp in the summer and tuition, we pay about $60k a year. We have some friends who have children the same gender as our children who live a block away from us. They are in the same boat - roughly $60k a year for tuition, camp, daycare etc. We've talked about our two families going in together and hiring a full time rebbe for $80k who could educate all of our kids, during our work hours, and over the summer. They'd have more individualized attention than they get now as 1 of 25 or 30 in a classroom, and we'd each save about $20k in expenses a year.

Or this?

If a school could truly get parents to commit to giving all of their tzedaka to the school, then it should be able to charge much much less tuition. For example, if I paid $30k in tzedaka to the school and then $10 k in tuition, the school would still be getting $40k, but I would get the benefit of $30k of it coming in pre tax dollars - which would save me about $12k a year. The problem is, that if it is a quid pro quo, then there's legal issues. But if it is a non-enforceable understanding....? My DH is friends (from childhood) with a Catholic priest. That is EXACTLY how the church does it. That's why a lot of catholic schools have tuition in the $4 - 5k range, and provide an excellent education. The bishop tells each family that their "tithe" is $X amount and their tuition will be $Y amount...and then they do it. Is it binding? Could the school sue the parents if they failed to pay their "tithe"? No, it couldn't (and that's why it's not illegal, at least arguably). But on the other hand there's a strong moral incentive for parents to do what the bishop asked of them, just as we will do what the leading rav of our city would tell us to do. If the parents don't follow through, I bet they don't get the same deal the next year!

↑ Clarissa ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 11:30 am

Tamiri wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

One thing parents can do is get very involved. Most schools have meetings in which changes are discussed. Parents who are very involved can often question these decisions and have make their voices heard, fwiw.

It may be different where you are Clarissa, but in my experience, it was generally the $$$ parents who made the policies and rubbed shoulders with the admin, even though they pretended to listen to the all the parents.

The parents on our school board are among the wealthiest in the school, but all parents are welcome at almost all of the meetings. Therefore, if there is some proposed policy change and the response is a huge outcry from the rest of the parents, the board must listen. There have been some decisions with which we've disagreed, and we think the tuition is outrageous, but if I wanted to get more actively involved (I don't), I think I'd have a greater say in things.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 11:48 am

Clarissa wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Sounds great. If the school would be willing to NOTIFY the parents that a meeting is scheduled to take place on this or that issue, I would be there 100%. Nobody notifies us, nobody asks us. just we get one letter saying they've hired tons of new staff, and a second notice asking for a fundraiser because they're in a budget crisis! Oh yeah, we received one more notice - our tuition nearly doubled. What a surprise? Rolling Eyes

↑ Tamiri ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

You could do PS in the morning for English subjects, and the Rebbe in the pm for a couple of hours (with small groups 1-2 hours are equal to 5 or more hours in school).

Or this?

amother wrote:

If a school could truly get parents to commit to giving all of their tzedaka to the school, then it should be able to charge much much less tuition. For example, if I paid $30k in tzedaka to the school and then $10 k in tuition, the school would still be getting $40k, but I would get the benefit of $30k of it coming in pre tax dollars - which would save me about $12k a year. The problem is, that if it is a quid pro quo, then there's legal issues. But if it is a non-enforceable understanding....? My DH is friends (from childhood) with a Catholic priest. That is EXACTLY how the church does it. That's why a lot of catholic schools have tuition in the $4 - 5k range, and provide an excellent education. The bishop tells each family that their "tithe" is $X amount and their tuition will be $Y amount...and then they do it. Is it binding? Could the school sue the parents if they failed to pay their "tithe"? No, it couldn't (and that's why it's not illegal, at least arguably). But on the other hand there's a strong moral incentive for parents to do what the bishop asked of them, just as we will do what the leading rav of our city would tell us to do. If the parents don't follow through, I bet they don't get the same deal the next year!

Tithing in the Catholic church, from what I have been told, is mandatory. That means that regardless of whether you have children in parochial school, and regardless of the number of children - you are giving the money to the Church and they are dispensing with it as they see fit; we assume that a huge share is going towards the school.
However, there is nothing homogeneous in the Jewish community. People don't tithe in the same direction. Those who have finished paying for school are not contributing there specifically; they do what they want. There isn't a central collection plate, which is why this system and it's tax benefits won't work for Jewish education. You can't donate and say: but that has to cover my kids tuition, because then it's no longer a donation and it's not tax deductible.

↑ Clarissa ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 12:04 pm

amother wrote:

That's pretty outrageous. Our school begs all of the parents to get involved, come to meetings, volunteer, etc. I'm just an apathetic, uninvolved whiner. If my school board had all meetings in secret, I would complain. On the other hand, we don't get a say in everything, like new hirings, basic building maintenance (even if costly), some curriculum changes. Our headmaster sends out letters to explain various things, but not everything. The parent body of our school has many over-educated over-achievers who have a tendency to want a hand in everything, so the school winds up having to involve parents in everything. The parents on the board are people who were, or are, extremely successful in business, so they try to have a strong voice in school decisions. We can have our voices heard to a certain extent, but not in everything. There are many things I don't love, or even like, about the school, but I could get more involved if I wanted to. I'm just not a joiner-doer type.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 12:16 pm

Quote:

amother wrote:

If a school could truly get parents to commit to giving all of their tzedaka to the school, then it should be able to charge much much less tuition. For example, if I paid $30k in tzedaka to the school and then $10 k in tuition, the school would still be getting $40k, but I would get the benefit of $30k of it coming in pre tax dollars - which would save me about $12k a year. The problem is, that if it is a quid pro quo, then there's legal issues. But if it is a non-enforceable understanding....? My DH is friends (from childhood) with a Catholic priest. That is EXACTLY how the church does it. That's why a lot of catholic schools have tuition in the $4 - 5k range, and provide an excellent education. The bishop tells each family that their "tithe" is $X amount and their tuition will be $Y amount...and then they do it. Is it binding? Could the school sue the parents if they failed to pay their "tithe"? No, it couldn't (and that's why it's not illegal, at least arguably). But on the other hand there's a strong moral incentive for parents to do what the bishop asked of them, just as we will do what the leading rav of our city would tell us to do. If the parents don't follow through, I bet they don't get the same deal the next year!

Tithing in the Catholic church, from what I have been told, is mandatory. That means that regardless of whether you have children in parochial school, and regardless of the number of children - you are giving the money to the Church and they are dispensing with it as they see fit; we assume that a huge share is going towards the school.
However, there is nothing homogeneous in the Jewish community. People don't tithe in the same direction. Those who have finished paying for school are not contributing there specifically; they do what they want. There isn't a central collection plate, which is why this system and it's tax benefits won't work for Jewish education. You can't donate and say: but that has to cover my kids tuition, because then it's no longer a donation and it's not tax deductible.

You're misunderstanding me. Specifically those parents who have children school age who want to go to catholic school are told this amount is your tithe and this other amount is what you'll pay for tuition. Of course other people also contribute tithes to the church and some of that also gets allocated to parochial schools (BTW tithes can go to numerous catholic institutions, just as we give tzedaka to numerous Jewish institutions). But the homogeneity of the church is really not critical - the schools still have to make it or not financially as there are a lot of institutions competing for the church dollar, and the vast bulk of that support has to come from the parents one way or the other. Think of it kind of like the local Jewish Federation (l'havdil) which also gives money to schools - schools don't make it off of the JF alone. (I actually do know something about this since I"m BT and I went to catholic school 12 years myself!). I agree that it raises legal issues, but I think that they get around it, because it truly isn't an enforceable agreement - I.e. there's no recourse if the family ends up NOT making the charitable contribution.

There's really no reason why something similar couldn't work in the Jewish community - it would require the leadership of some Torah leaders, however, before whom families would be ashamed NOT to live up to what they had pledged to the school. (And of course, some good advice from a tax lawyer about how to structure everything legally).

Rutabaga

Sun, Aug 24 2008, 11:09 pm

I don't have to worry about tuition yet - dd is only turning 4 months old this week. I have to say, though, that this thread is making me extremely nervous. I suppose we should start saving for school now, but we have more pressing expenses at the moment. If we don't fix the roof before the winter then we are going to have major problems.

This thread also makes me appreciate my parents so much more because they gave us a good jewish education, gave us a year or two in seminary/yeshiva in Israel, and put us through college. I have no idea how they managed all that. It makes me regret not doing better in school (not that I did poorly, but I could have put more effort into it).

chavamom ↓

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 1:42 am

amother wrote:

This is how kehilos in Europe worked. The "Federations" are based on the same principle. Problem being that the Federations priorities and the priorities of the frum community ain't one and the same.