Should teenagers be charging friends?

amother

↑ Lily

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 3:24 pm

singleagain wrote:

About this idea by the way .... If you were a true family or friend, you would dafka use your friend's business at full price and not ask for any sort of discount. You were a friend. You should want your friend to get profit off of you. You should be wanting to support your friend by hiring them for a job. Isn't that the best form of tzedaka anyway?

Also this this this!
I'm a photographer, it always meant the world to me when people I knew personally hired me for my work. And no one EVER asked for a discount, they were happy with my end product and happy to support my little business. That's friendship.

amother

Midnight ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 5:06 pm

OP, after thinking about this it's a great opportunity to teach your kids real friendship and Chessed. Say to your son, I'm so happy we can pay him for driving. I actually wish he would've always charged so we could pay him for the great service he gives and support him in a respectful way.
This is a Torah true hashkafa!
(as opposed to "we don't mix business and friendship" which has no basis in Torah)

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 7:39 pm

Along the same line’s people call me all the time for advice from water safety, to training camp counselors, to teaching , to how to sign up for ace or upload bills to government programs , etc. When it’s a few minute conversation I have never charged . But I also know how to establish boundaries and not let each call turn into a huge ordeal. When it turns into, can I come sit with you for half an hour and go through my full list of questions with specific answers based on my unique setup or can I come to your house and you do do it with me, then I charge an hourly rate. Am I taking advantage? No.. I am distinguishing between a favor and a business act.

amother

Ruby ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 7:46 pm

the first thought when I read this that crossed my mind was' I bet this boy needs to cover the car costs himself and he needs the money.

It does NOT feel nice to be the designated driver week after week when your friends are chilling in the car and you need to concentrate on the road and safely get everyone home. As several posters have pointed out, its the regularity of it that absolutely makes it more than ok to charge.

Calling it 'tacky 'is just so entitled !

Now when you mentioned the rest of the scenario I really am dissapointed.
The boy comes from a broken home- almost guaranteed he pays all the car expenses himself!

Your child and the other boys blissfully taking rides from him , I bet you while he is feeling horrible that he has to charge for sharing gas and tolls- trust me it feels very 'rich' to say ' sure come in in, no problem, and get some social cred for doing so--he surely would if he could-

But this boy nost likely cannot afford it!!!!
it didnt occur to you to actualy offer on your own to pay for more??? You barely begrudge him a share of basic costs?

And you want us to judge if its 'nice 'or not?? HOW ARE YOU BEING NICE HERE? especialy that you know the boys background?

And now you begrudge him the meals youve given him- so he 'owes you' for the rest of his life?
However much you have helped him till now you obviously have NO IDEA what its like to be in this situation.
So he didnt yet polish up on social skills to know how to have a conversation about it, or to give the boys a headsup, where should he have learnt this from? Does he have good role models? Or does he have to use his head at this young age just to figure out how to make money to cover his living expenses?

Where is your compassion?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 9:48 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

So lets me get this story straight,
This young man, (who by the way is on the path to becoming super duper successful), comes from a broken home and through self determination and grit alone has pulled himself by the bootstraps, worked in jobs your children would probably never consider starting from a very young age and today has a license and a car, one at least of which your child does not yet have.
This same young man has presumably been driving you child and others graciously for months for below cost and now wants to be paid his worth and all you can fergin him is a meal in your home????
I am sure he truly appreciates the times you opened the door for him but he is no longer a helpless child. IY"H he will pay the favor forward and now its time to treat him with the dignity he deserves as a young adult on the cusp of building his own independent life.
Pay him the fare wage and stop telling your child Motzei shem ra about him!!!!
I suddenly wish this young man was on this website just for this thread alone, just so he could hear me tell him that he will go very very far in life and that he is doing great!! I am proud of him. I am disgusted by your behavior OP. You should know better.

Not really accurate. Without giving too much detail this driving arrangement started very recently. It hasn't been going on for months.

I also stated that I don't want to discuss this specific young man because he comes from a bad situation and therefore should be given much more leeway than others.

This personal situation aside, I'm curious to hear opinions about how people feel about friends charging friends for favors.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 9:55 pm

amother Black wrote:

In French, there is a saying "Les bons comptes font les bons amis" "Good accounting makes good friends", meaning that being friends does not mean they don't have to pay.

I think in a friendship, there has to be a right balance, and if the situation is that he is the one doing favors and the other's are not, this could destroy the friendship too.

You definition that he HAS to do it only for fuel and tolls BECAUSE he is a FRIEND is a mindset where there is big risk that you will take advantage of your friends and the relation will be transactional in the sense that you are only interested if your friend is doing favors for you.

Great saying! It’s so true.

In the US we say something like don’t mix friendship and business. I think the attitude is so sad! You should be your friends biggest cheerleader when they’re starting out.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 9:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

Now that he’s charging it’s a business and no longer a favor.

If you’re asking whether it’s ok to turn something that a teen used to do as a favor, and make it a business instead, 100% ok. A teen who used to put up sukkahs for free and now does it for pay. A teen who used to clean cars for free and now does it for pay. Etc.

Let’s face it your son doesn’t seem to have any money and you’re the one who now needs to pay for the rides. The favor was toward the parents not the boys themselves who aren’t paying regardless.

amother

Hyssop ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 10:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would never say he's a bad person. Not because I'm holding back, but because he simply isn't a bad person. He's a fine young man. I do think he has to be careful about charging his friends for things like this. I don't want my son or his friends charging him back when they do favors for him or each other. That's not what being good friends is about.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm surprised to see so many people say otherwise. My daughter went to the supermarket this morning and picked up something for a neighbor. Should she charge her a few dollars? The neighbor benefitted from it. It was slightly inconvenient. The neighbor could have hired someone to do it. Can my daughter charge? I suppose she can. But that's not what a good neighbor does.

It seems many here would say se should have bargained a few dollars for the service.

Of course we di favors for friends.

These are completely different scenarios. If your sons friend was giving a one off ride he shouldn't and probably wouldnt charge.

But this is a weekly thing. Thats beyond a favor. In this case his friends and their parents are TAKING ADVANTAGE of this boys investment in the car and its ongoing costs, as well as his labour of drving.

Your daughter is picking up a few things here and there in a store. Thats a favor. If she was doing your able bodied neighbors grocery shopping weekly youd feel different about this "chessed" and probably rightfully encourage her to charge.

That this boy comes from a troubled home makes me more upset that his friends are taking advantage of him this way.

There may be an issue with the way he went about it with no notice and perhaps the amount hes charging (should be much less than uber), but he should be earning something. (My impression this is not a 15 min drive but 45 min or even longer trip to "oot yeshiva").

amother

↑ Hyssop ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 10:20 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

1000000%

amother

↑ Hyssop ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 11:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

And why are you drawing the line of charging people only when it's frequent? Why not make a few dollars and charge friends and neighbors for every little thing?

Im really not sure what to tell you if you cant see the difference.

There is a line everywhere where it goes from doing a favor to being taken advantage of. That line is usually frequency and / or intensity.

In many situations at that point, healthy people might say "no" to not be taken advantage of.

Other times they may charge, if that makes it work for them.

Some people may do it anyway and feel resentful.

And a few yechidim are such baalas chesseds that they happily do it.

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 2:02 am

amother Firethorn wrote:

It appears as he has no hakarat hatov for all the times OP & family has been there for him. TBH, I would be much less inclined to invite him again. I know that I B”H don’t understand him, and would push myself to continue to invite, but I would no longer be doing it b’simcha. I absolutely understand how OP seems to feel.

(But this is also why I am not a business woman. I would never be able to charge for services. I am happy to do everyone a favor and expect that you will do me favors in return. Maybe it is because I had a childhood where people helped each other and I didn’t want for things.)

As someone with a difficult background who was never savvy enough to know to charge for anything, but was invited to people's houses for Shabbat, I find this really sad. You'll only invite someone if they can afford to do favors in return?

farm ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 8:52 am

amother OP wrote:

Ok OP you want to hear opinions? Let’s change the scenario to one that comes up on this site often enough and has been mentioned above-
“Can you please take my kids off the bus when you get your and they’ll hang out by your house for an hour? I have a late work meeting.”
Favor
“Wow it was so amazing to have a quiet house for an extra hour yesterday! My meeting ended early and I was able to put up supper and get in a load of laundry in peace and quiet. From now on, please take my kids home with yours from the bus and I’ll get them an hour later.”
Money

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 10:21 am

amother Purple wrote:

I think there's what to learn from this thread. I appreciate the comment about how frequency is a good determent for whether something is a chessed or business.

But your comments here are just plain off. At least consider the difference that this boy is driving himself anyway and there is only minor inconvenience driving his friends. As opposed to someone who was putting up and taking down sukkahs for free and now wants to charge. That is a legitimate business that involves real labor. Nobody would say that should be free. Same with car cleaning. You're making a silly comparison.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 10:25 am

farm wrote:

Again, I've seen many good comments here but this one is off. The driver here is going very little out of his way. He'd be driving himself home anyway and the boys all live right next to each other.

This is very different than your scenario where a person asks another to literally babysit her kid every day for an hour. What???

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 10:26 am

farm wrote:

Let’s try another one.
Neighbor just had a baby. Your teenage daughter goes over after school and does homework with the siblings, bathes the toddler, and serves them dinner.
Favor
Neighbor calls to thank you for sending your malach of a daughter and requests she comes every day for the next 6 weeks
Money

See my above comment please.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 10:33 am

amother Lily wrote:

Sorry if I implied that thought it was ok to expect friends to give freebies on their business. Definitely not. I thought this scenario was a little different because it involved the driver driving himself anyway and therefore wasn't inconveniencing himself.

I can't think of a genuinely similar example. Maybe this. Every day I buy myself a coffee and my neighbor asks me if I can pick one up for her a few times a week. So I'm not really inconveniencing myself, and I'm doing a favor on a somewhat regular basis.

Many here say that's beyond chessed and because of the regularity it's now business and a charge for a profit would be the way to go.

↑ Reality ↓

Mon, Feb 12 2024, 10:35 am

amother OP wrote:

Again, I've seen many good comments here but this on is off. The driver here is going very little out of his way. He'd be driving himself home anyway and the boys all live right next to each other.

This is very different than your scenario where a person asks another to literally babysit her kid every day for an hour. What???

Really? Do you ever give rides to anyone? There are always inconveniences of time and space.