Should teenagers be charging friends?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:32 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

Even if he didn't come from a broken home, he's still allowed to charge and your son is allowed to choose a different way of getting home. How is this different than parents who drive carpool and you pay them for it. Yes they're going anyway but they deserve to be compensated.

The poster on the previous page used the word "transactional".

Meaning do you want to be friends or do you want to have a relationship where I'll only do you favors if you pay me? The latter is not a real friendship.

amother

↑ Cinnamon

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:37 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would never say he's a bad person. Not because I'm holding back, but because he simply isn't a bad person. He's a fine young man. I do think he has to be careful about charging his friends for things like this. I don't want my son or his friends charging him back when they do favors for him or each other. That's not what being good friends is about.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'm surprised to see so many people say otherwise. My daughter went to the supermarket this morning and picked up something for a neighbor. Should she charge her a few dollars? The neighbor benefitted from it. It was slightly inconvenient. The neighbor could have hired someone to do it. Can my daughter charge? I suppose she can. But that's not what a good neighbor does.

It seems many here would say se should have bargained a few dollars for the service.

Did anyone say that it’s normal to charge for a one time small favor? That’s not what I read and that’s not the question you asked.
I would also be careful that when you’re teaching your children to do favors for others and explaining what your family standards are, you’re not venturing into lashon hara by putting down their friends behavior especially now that you see how many people think it falls well into the realm of being a good friend.

amother

↑ Eggplant

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:39 pm

amother OP wrote:

What sort of advice are you seeking, op?
You have stated several times you don't like this/it's tacky. Ok. What are you seeking to do going forward?

Are you asking about whether you should continue to have your son use his services? If you think it's ok to tell him or have your son tell him that you don't agree with him charging for a profit? Having your son end the friendship? Or are you seeking the answer to a different angle that hasn't been covered yet?

amother

↑ Burntblack ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:39 pm

Op, you ask where's the line.

Imo, the line moves from Chessed to paying based on the frequency.
Your daughter ran an errand for your neighbor? Chessed.
Your neighbor asks your daughter for a weekly errand run, that would be grounds for your daughter to charge.

My neighbor asks if her kids can come off the bus and hang out by me while she's at the dentist? Chessed
My neighbor asks that they come to me every Monday and Wednesday. That's paying.

Occasional ride? That's Chessed
Weekly turns into a paying thing.

Otherwise many people start feeling resentful and being taken advantage of.

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 2:54 pm

First of all a 18 year old is closer to an adult than a teenager. He might very well need to pay his own insurance, car maintenance, expenses.
If my neighbor asks me to borrow or buy her a gallon of milk while I am at the store I would never charge. If a neighbor would ask me every week if I could pick up lettuce I would want her to pay me something or show me some hakaras hatov. (using that as an example because romaine is only available certain days so it’s a common thing that people just need lettuce for Shabbos).
It’s not about transactional. It’s about a set thing being different than a one time favor.

The fact that he is from a broken home should make you more understanding of his needing parnasa and independence, not less.

singleagain ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 3:13 pm

I've even following this thread and want to share my carpool story.

Before covid I used to go to an in person support group. When I found out on of the other members was on my way and paying for Uber when he didn't have income I said "don't pay I'll take you" and I used to pick him up. Sometimes another person or two would join. I used to leave from work and eventually I realized that I was leaving work an extra half hour earlier to go get the other person. So I asked for them to start coming to meet me at work a half hour later. If I used to do pick up at 6. I said they could come to my work at 6.30 and then we'd leave. I don't know how he got to my work, I think he took Uber there.

Was it wrong for me to do that?

How is this the same.. bc for whatever cheshbon the driver made this situation is no longer benefiting him. Just as I would get annoyed to have to leave work earlier. So I changed the parameters to make it work better for both of us. He still had to pay, but a local ride was a lot cheaper than two ways 10 mile trip.

The only thing that was not nice is that it seems that the driver didn't communicate his change in advance, as your son came running in and asked for money. I told my rider a few days before the group that this is what I was thinking and we discussed it.

I have a feels that if this 18 year old had communicated with your son earlier in the week and then your son spoke to you to be expecting this, it would be a lot easier to swallow.

Crookshanks

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 3:27 pm

amother OP wrote:

Because it's not a halacha question. I'm sure he's allowed to charge. I just feel it's tacky. I told my son that I'm very happy he's friends with this boy but I think that his friend is making a mistake by charging friends for something he's doing anyway. Of course everyone should share the expense of the ride. I told my son that in our world we don't profit off friends.

One point I want to add. The driver comes from a very (very very) broken home. That being said he's a savvy kid and is very business oriented. He's been vacuuming cars for pesach for a number of years and is now trying to start a small power washing business. He's only 18. This boy has serious family issues but I don't think money is a problem as I can see how he spends. That being said I think perhaps because of his background he unfortunately fends for himself and had to become a man early on if that makes sense.

Maybe I was too sensitive to it because it was right in my face. My son walked in the house with this boy and said "mom, I owe "chaim" X dollars because he drove us home. My son didn't have the cash and I handed the boy the money. This boy has probably eaten on shabbos at my house 50 times in the last few years. Felt weird handing him cash like that. But now that I'm a little calmer I think I have to give this boy a complete pass because of his circumstances. I still think that as a general rule it is a terrible idea to charge friends for things like this.

The more you post the more I dislike you.
You seem fine to host him when he's a little nebach chessed case, but when he stands up for himself he's a "bad friend" and "tacky."
I wouldn't want to eat at your house if this is how you viewed me.

And your daughter picking up things for your neighbor from the grocery has nothing to do with this. If she'd be doing this every week, it would be instacart, and she'd be charging quite a bit of money.

This whole post gives me vomitous feelings.
I feel sad for this young man for his family background and how independent he's had to be to survive, but I'm also proud of himself for standing up for himself and doing what's right for him.

And another thought, the only thing that would make "Chaim's" friends feel weird around him is because people like *you* are telling your son that his friend is doing the wrong thing and "in *our* world we don't profit off friends." 🤮

Rant over

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 4:10 pm

amother OP wrote:

How about all the times he drove your son just for gas money. Does that count for anything?

Is he asking you for back pay on the drives he did as a favor? Then I could hear your side. Otherwise? You sound greedy and entitled.

Do you know how this boy pays for car insurance, maintenance, if he’s paying off a car loan? You must. Right? Since you know he doesn’t need the money.

Out of curiosity where does this teenager have the money to pay for all these car expenses? I’m an adult and it’s hard for me to swing some months.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 4:13 pm

amother Firethorn wrote:

And this is where you and I differ. B”H I don’t understand the difficult childhood and what his psychological needs to support himself are. While I know it is the ikar of his mentality, as a bystander, to me, one does favors for a friend and helps / shows chessed and kindness to someone who had helped you with your needs. Charging money here doesn’t nullify his lack of a family with a table to eat with, it distances him and makes interactions transactional with someone who was provided him with support. If, he was poor, and the kids or moms were offering to pay him, this way he could earn money with dignity and pride, to buy himself clothing/pay for his needs, that would be a different thing, but honestly, I think for him to ask for money in this way, it’s sort of chutzpah and a big turn off. It appears as he has no hakarat hatov for all the times OP & family has been there for him. TBH, I would be much less inclined to invite him again. I know that I B”H don’t understand him, and would push myself to continue to invite, but I would no longer be doing it b’simcha. I absolutely understand how OP seems to feel.

(But this is also why I am not a business woman. I would never be able to charge for services. I am happy to do everyone a favor and expect that you will do me favors in return. Maybe it is because I had a childhood where people helped each other and I didn’t want for things.)

And if I never charged for services I would have zero money and my family would be ch”v on the streets with no food or clothes. I guess what you mean is that you aren’t in a service based career but it’s the usual to need to pay for services. No one should ever expect to be serviced for free.

Favors are great and I give and take favors but there is a line where something crosses beyond a favor and that needs to be paid for.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 4:30 pm

Crookshanks wrote:

I guess we can parent differently. I absolutely will tell my children to seperate friends from business. I can't ever remembering charging a friend nor do I remember a friend charging me.

And why are you drawing the line of charging people only when it's frequent? Why not make a few dollars and charge friends and neighbors for every little thing?

amother

↑ Rose ↓

Fri, Feb 09 2024, 4:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

Are you in the service business? I'm going to assume not. If your child owns a store will you tell them to give their products away for free to their friends so they dont charge them? If they are a plumber will you tell them to fix all their friends pipes for free?

↑ Reality ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 12:08 pm

OP, the best form of giving tzedakah is giving someone a job. How all you moms never thought to actually pay this young man for his weekly car service job is beyond me. Do you actually think he runs his little side businesses for fun? He obviously needs the money to support himself and possibly other family members.

I don't think you realize how conceited your attitude to this young man is. Try to put yourself in this young man's shoes instead of judging him from your place of financial/familial security.

amother

↑ Black

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 1:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

In French, there is a saying "Les bons comptes font les bons amis" "Good accounting makes good friends", meaning that being friends does not mean they don't have to pay.

I think in a friendship, there has to be a right balance, and if the situation is that he is the one doing favors and the other's are not, this could destroy the friendship too.

You definition that he HAS to do it only for fuel and tolls BECAUSE he is a FRIEND is a mindset where there is big risk that you will take advantage of your friends and the relation will be transactional in the sense that you are only interested if your friend is doing favors for you.

amother

Peachpuff ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 2:13 pm

So lets me get this story straight,
This young man, (who by the way is on the path to becoming super duper successful), comes from a broken home and through self determination and grit alone has pulled himself by the bootstraps, worked in jobs your children would probably never consider starting from a very young age and today has a license and a car, one at least of which your child does not yet have.
This same young man has presumably been driving you child and others graciously for months for below cost and now wants to be paid his worth and all you can fergin him is a meal in your home????
I am sure he truly appreciates the times you opened the door for him but he is no longer a helpless child. IY"H he will pay the favor forward and now its time to treat him with the dignity he deserves as a young adult on the cusp of building his own independent life.
Pay him the fare wage and stop telling your child Motzei shem ra about him!!!!
I suddenly wish this young man was on this website just for this thread alone, just so he could hear me tell him that he will go very very far in life and that he is doing great!! I am proud of him. I am disgusted by your behavior OP. You should know better.

amother

↑ Lily ↓

Sat, Feb 10 2024, 3:17 pm

amother Cinnamon wrote:

This.
I think it's very important you speak to your son and backtrack, and work to build his friend up in his eyes in some way. What you said to your son is definitely L"H and will likely effect how your son thinks about his friend going forward, and that IS an halachic problem.
Listen, I was team, shouldn't have to pay Uber prices, or very much more than gas and tolls. Some of the posts here have made me reconsider a little bit. How much of an inconvenience is being caused the driver by the passengers? You've been posed some very good questions that you haven't answered here. You don't need to, we're not owed anything, but hopefully they'll make you think a bit more about the position he's been thrust into. It's very easy at the start of a chesed to think "oh yeah, I'm going anyway, no big deal" only for things to crop up along the way, from minor to major inconveniences, and they can build up to resentment or a desire to stop. He probably feels it would be very unfair to stop at this point and leave everyone high and dry, so better he should feel less taken advantage of and charge.
You use business savvy in a way that almost sounds like you mean money hungry, and that he'll exploit every opportunity to earn some coin. To me it sounds like this arrangement wasn't serving him and, knowing his worth, figured he should charge what he feels he's worth.
I will say, though that it sounded like he decided and told the boys in a "I'm charging from this ride on" kind of way, and they weren't given an option to decide for themselves if they wanted to go forward like that. (Based on you saying your son walked in and said he owed him X amount, that he already owed for that ride without being given prior consideration to decide for himself and consent.) That I don't think is correct. He should have approached them at Yeshiva with days to plan and let them know his new arrangement and that way they could know in advance going forward and decide for themselves rather than getting a ride expecting it to cost X, and it cost them Y instead, without warning. (Which, for that ride, might actually be halachically problematic)