Please explain Chardal hashkafa to me

amother

Lightcoral

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:41 am

I am short on time so I am offering a terrible oversimplification.

In Israeli society the chareidi community is the most sheltered and unchanged by modern technology. They follow gedolei hador of previous generations who forbade army service. They generally live a simpler lifestyle than dati leumi.

The chardal are careful about halacha to the max, and try to limit technology usage, but they believe serving in the army is a mitzvah. They put lots of weight on Torah learning with enough secular learning to make college possible but secular learning is not an ideal. Boys and girls don't have much contact once they outgrow playing with neighbors. However, the battle on technology use is a hard one as they are more exposed to the outside world than chareidim. Many chardal communities are over the green line. And some carry scars of being expelled from Gush Katif or living near terrorists.

Torani just seems to be a step up from dati leumi where parents want more Torah learning in the school curriculum and halacha. But it's part of a spectrum.

Take a good look at the 7th-9th grade kids in the communities you are considering and see who you want your kids to be like.

essie14 ↓

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:47 am

amother Hibiscus wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me there is also a chareidi-lite category. Less “intensely” chareidi, but I don’t think their ideology includes army service. Am I wrong?

Correct. Chareidi lite or Modern chareidi want their kids to learn some secular subjects, the parents have technology and work, but no army.

amother

Jetblack

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 5:11 pm

I'm part of an amazing Chardal community near Be'er Sheva. All of the men in our community are currently serving. I have a friend whose husband and two sons are all serving now.
The chessed here is next-level. Incredible support postpartum- full two week meal train organized by a woman in the community. Everyone looks out for each other.
Technology-wise, there is a community WhatsApp group, but some of the women don't have smartphones. From what I can tell, everyone has a computer, but I haven't seen any tvs (at least in public spaces).
The women wear mitpachot, varying degrees of covering. Some cover everything, some have a little hair sticking out, some have more. Some women wear sandals, some always wear stockings.
The men wear knitted kippot. Some wear black and white on Shabbat, but not exclusively.
(I am not exactly Chardal. We have smartphones, we do have a tv in an enclosed den that we lock during the day. My clothing style is also pretty American, comparatively, although I cover everything. It's what feels like the best fit. My husband and I were both raised in yeshivish American communities)

amother

Tiffanyblue

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 6:53 pm

amother Jetblack wrote:

What is the name of your community? This sounds like a fit for us... iy"H one day soon...

nylon ↓

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:38 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

I think that RWDL/torani will often send kids to regular MaMad (public DL) schools and their kids will just be the most RW ones there. The Chardal would not do that, Afaik.

This is a complicated question based on the specific schools available and how they label themselves (schools may call themselves 'torani' but not really be any different from a regular mamad). I think the fairest statement would be that more RW DL would insist on separate classes for boys and girls from first grade. Many mamad schools separate later. I believe an official guideline was issued a few years ago that separate classes should begin in fifth grade in the mamad schools. A few might still be mixed through sixth grade. There are networks like Noam-Tzvia that really target this group.

A Chardal family would never send their children to a mamad with mixed classes.

But it's also important to remember that for chardal, Zionism is very important, it's not just "more modern".

amother

Bronze

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:52 pm

amother Lightcoral wrote:

Take a good look at the 7th-9th grade kids in the communities you are considering and see who you want your kids to be like.

This. True for schools you send your kids to as well. Can’t tell in the younger years, but 7-9th grade is a great way to get a good picture.

Rappel

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:17 pm

The pillars of Chardal philosophy are based on Rav Kook's teachings: Torat Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael, and Am Yisrael. You can read some Rav Kook books in English to get an idea of how that plays out.

Many take it as their mission to build at least one of those pillars, by creating a "garin" community in a struggling city and raising it up socially, communally, and Torah-wise. It's kiruv, so then you'll see a gamut of observance in the schools and institutions -- but the core families will be those related to the yeshiva.

Alternatively, the same core group could pioneer a new town in untamed land in Israel, and call it a yishuv. Different challenges for the youth (after the initial years, when everything is already idyllic, you need to intentionally teach them to strive), and different academic and social development. For example, the odds of my son coming out of our Talmud Torah ready to go to medical school are near zero. But he's constantly hiking, building, or shepherding with his friends. I see a future for him as a Rav + policeman + electrician. XD

In practice, Lightcoral's middle-schoolers tip will tell you a lot about what you need to know about any particular community you're checking out.

↑ essie14 ↓

Today at 6:58 am

amother Wheat wrote:

I'm not OP but I'm following with interest. Would anyone be willing to post more?

What more do you want to know that hasn't been explained here?
Why don't you quote the post(s) that you want clarification on?

Reality ↓

Today at 7:02 am

In my opinion many US Jews could fit into a Torani/Chardali community if they can get past the clothes and boys doing a Hesder program.

The boys have a very high kodesh education and they cram in the basics of secular studies so they get a bagrut.

They sit and learn post high school deferring army service for a few years (many times after marriage) or do a combined, high level Hesder program.

They do not dress in black and white during the week.

The girls have high level kodesh and chol. No uniforms in school. Many have school rule must wear socks to school.

Most girls do sheirut leumi for 1-2 years. Some of the most "dos" families don't want their girls doing sheirut leumi so they skip it and go to Midrasha (seminary) instead. Other girls do both sheirut and Midrasha.

Many do kollel for the first few years and they live like real kollel couples. In general, it's an extremely non-materialistic society. No emphasis on externals. Tremendous emphasis on internal values.

amother

Myrtle ↓

Today at 7:15 am

The learning style of chardal is also different for boys than the typical yeshiva or BY. The kids are taught very differently.

They span from those with long to short sleeves, cover fully to not cover. The girls do sheirut and boys army. They are very open but also have a strong hashkafa. We’re chardali but as Americans we’re in beit shemesh and thinking of moving to binyamin.

Note that it’s a different more intense type of lifestyle in general.

amother

Zinnia ↓

Today at 7:20 am

amother Jetblack wrote:

Would also love to hear where you live if you don’t mind sharing Smile

amother

Cherry ↓

Today at 7:23 am

amother Hibiscus wrote:

I could be wrong, but it seems to me there is also a chareidi-lite category. Less “intensely” chareidi, but I don’t think their ideology includes army service. Am I wrong?

That's wrong. They definitely go to the army!!!

amother

Mocha

Today at 7:29 am

essie14 wrote:

Correct. Chareidi lite or Modern chareidi want their kids to learn some secular subjects, the parents have technology and work, but no army.

The problem is a big majority of that crowd has been hurt by the chareidi system and they are very negative and anti, don't have a Rav etc. I'd rather stick to chardal

amother

↑ Myrtle ↓

Today at 7:38 am

amother Mocha wrote:

The problem is a big majority of that crowd has been hurt by the chareidi system and they are very negative and anti, don't have a Rav etc. I'd rather stick to chardal

I don’t find this in beit shemesh. Rather, it’s just the American approach. We find many with rabbanim. We fall toward the chardali spectrum but we see plenty with rabbanim and very positive.

↑ Reality ↓

Today at 7:55 am

amother Myrtle wrote:

I don’t find this in beit shemesh. Rather, it’s just the American approach. We find many with rabbanim. We fall toward the chardali spectrum but we see plenty with rabbanim and very positive.

There's a very big difference between Israeli chareidi lite who are burned by the system and don't really want to be chareidi anymore but stick around for either family or cultural reasons. Then you have the American open yeshivish culture which is quite different. That open yeshivish is not that different from Chardal at it's core. But if you get bogged down by certain externals and can't shed the anti-state mentality then you won't feel like you belong anywhere!