Teaching in frum school vs public school, degrees etc

amother

OP ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 12:48 am

I am a frum secular studies teacher (part time, because just afternoon) in a frum school with a BA.

I don't have a Masters in Ed, nor a teacher's license. (Which one is more important, anyway?)

I like working in a frum environment, impacting the lives of frum children... And it's not a very intense hard job for me BH. (Have been teaching same grade for almost a decade.)

But I'm thinking that if I'd ever want to increase my salary as my kids get older and will soon be all in school, maybe I should go back to school and... I'm not sure.
I don't think I'll get much salary increase in my school for having a higher degree or licensure...
I don't really want to work in a non Jewish place... Less meaningful, no YT off, etc.

What would be the advantages of going back to school other than salary increase in a public school?

How could I use it to leverage within the frum system for a more supervisory/curriculum/mentoring job so that I can increase my salary?

Would love to hear thoughts of teachers within frum system

Also, any teachers who went from frum to public or vice versa, would love to hear your thoughts.

notshanarishona ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 1:33 am

Every state is different but… based on my experience a teaching license is needed to get any public school teacher job, a Masters is not. As far as if a frum school would recognize it? It’s possible but unless very modern or out of town school it’s likely not going to get you much.
Personally, I regret getting my Masters in education, if I knew how little extra I would get for it I never would have bothered. The only thing it’s helped me with is to get more teaching offers but little or no financial incentive.

seeker ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 2:20 am

In NY, you need to have a masters within 5 years or your teaching license expires. So it's not really an either/or, it's a first/then.

I don't know the market that well but outside public school I don't think a general ed masters or teaching license is especially valuable. In special ed it is because you can work for government funded special ed programs. In specific subject areas like math and science, a degree or certification may make you more marketable to higher end schools.

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 2:29 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you!

Do you think it helps to have teaching license?

If you would ever want to be an administrator in a frum semi-professional school where secular studies teachers have at least a BA, would that be enough?

It’s very state dependent as to how important a teaching license is , for example in Ohio, the schools strongly prefer that all teachers have licenses but since their is a teacher’s shortage and they can’t find staff they will hire people just as much and for the same pay without a license. I would think it can’t hurt but its a lot of work, so not worth it unless you have a clear benefit.

amother

Maize ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 2:32 am

In NJ you don't need a Masters degree to get a teaching license, however the pay is significantly higher if you do have it. It gets even higher if you have additional credits. I have a Masters+60 credits--half of which my district paid for--and make 101K. I switched to public because frum and MO (I was at both) didn't pay nearly as well. Once my kids were all in school I made the switch. I'm often told it's a waste of good talent that I teach non-Jews but at the end of the day I need to feed my family. I'm doing something I love and I rarely, if ever, bring home work.

ETA This does not apply to elementary level teaching. It's only worth it if you teach the same subject all day and have little to no prep. No amount of money is worth the prep time that goes into teaching elementary school in a public school IMO.

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 9:53 am

amother Maize wrote:

I think your statement regarding the difficulty of elementary school is not accurate - at least for the teachers I know. My mother and many aunts were elementary school teachers in New York City. They much preferred it to middle school because in general the children were much easier to teach as even "good" kids in adolescent have issues often.

In terms of prepping they mostly had everything - or almost everything in hand after a few years and whatever you teach there is a learning curve the first few years. In general they were assigned a grade and taught that grade for years.

There are very significant financial benefits - at least in NYC in terms of health insurance and other benefits especially retirement.

amother

Valerian ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 10:03 am

amother Powderblue wrote:

There's been a massive change in expectations for teaching in elementary public schools in recent years. I started working in an elementary public school around 20 years ago. It was a manageable workload then and I enjoyed my job very much. Probably around 10 years ago is when things started to change, connected to Common Core coming in and the need to prove rigorous instruction and differentiated learning was taking place. Within a couple of years, the workload and expectations just started to grow. For me, the breaking point came around 5 years ago. I left teaching public school (and several colleagues left teaching altogether or retired early). My old colleagues say the workload and expectations haven't lessened a bit. One friend switched from teaching in a Jewish elementary school to a public school this past year and to say she is overwhelmed by the workload is an understatement. She barely has time to talk but when we do, I hear about her staying till 7 or 8 p.m. just to make sure she's caught up on the regular workload not even extra busy times like conference day or report card deadlines.

amother

↑ Maize ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 12:09 pm

amother Powderblue wrote:

This must have been years ago. The workload is enormous the last few years and veteran teachers are leaving elementary schools in droves. New teachers are looking for jobs at the middle school level mostly, as elementary jobs are unsustainable these days.

amother

Petunia

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 12:37 pm

amother Maize wrote:

Why is that? When I did my internship in a public school (over 10 years ago) the lessons were all scripted so there was little prep. Did school districts stop giving scripts?

↑ seeker ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 12:48 pm

amother Petunia wrote:

Why is that? When I did my internship in a public school (over 10 years ago) the lessons were all scripted so there was little prep. Did school districts stop giving scripts?

Not sure about scripts but they've added hosts of requirements in terms of documentation and stuff. Lots of pressure. For instance you might have a math block of time in which exactly 8 minutes needs to be class instruction and then 15 minutes needs to be group practice work, and if a kid asks a question that makes your 8 minute lesson go longer and your principal happens to pop in just then you get it written up in your records. I don't teach in public school but know several people who do and this is what it sounds like. You have to do a certain number of running records or other assessments on all the kids in a certain time frame but all your time is claimed in these instructional blocks so good luck figuring out when to do all the assessments and G-d help you if a kid is absent when their thing is due.

There are better schools and worse schools and classes, and it's not like all the public school teachers I know are miserable, but it does seem to be a high stress job across the board.

amother

↑ Maize ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 2:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

Wow seeker. That's crazy.
I could never handle

Please keep in mind that seeker's post is from one person that spoke to several people doing it, I'm assuming all in NYC. The worst horror stories come out of NYC's public school system.

The teaching model idea (8 mins do now, 12 mins instruction, etc.) is in many states by now, and in middle and high schools too. I use it. I've never, ever heard of being written up for deviating from the script. There are a ton of assessments, true, but if a child is absent we just indicate it. Nobody in administration gets all bent out of shape.

NYC is a unified school district. From what I hear, it's man eat man and may the nastiest person win. I've heard stories of admins out for revenge that won't give tenure to a teacher after 4 years of killing herself for the school because of some personal beef. If you're considering public school maybe NYC isn't the place to look.

amother

↑ Maize

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 2:51 pm

amother Petunia wrote:

Why is that? When I did my internship in a public school (over 10 years ago) the lessons were all scripted so there was little prep. Did school districts stop giving scripts?

Yeah. Until about SY 2011-2012 we pretty much got our lesson plans ready. There was also a lot more wiggle room for teachers to do things their way. Not so much anymore these days at the elementary level. I can only speak for middle school at my particular district where B"H lesson plans are a breeze because as long as you stick to the basic outline you're fine, but I know there are districts where that isn't the case. There are teachers that actually have to write out what their leading questions will be, what possible student responses will be, etc. Utterly absurd IMO.

↑ seeker

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 3:02 pm

amother Maize wrote:

Yes thank you, I forgot to clarify I am talking about NYC. No idea what goes on elsewhere.

amother

↑ Valerian

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 4:55 pm

amother Petunia wrote:

Why is that? When I did my internship in a public school (over 10 years ago) the lessons were all scripted so there was little prep. Did school districts stop giving scripts?

First of all, 10 years ago things hadn't started to change so drastically. So you might indeed have been doing things "old school" back then.
Also, maybe that was the case in the specific district or school you worked in. Other than the 30 minute phonics lesson I did when I taught primary grades, I never had a scripted lesson.
And when everything is small groups/differentiated instruction, it comes with a ton of prep. Tons of mini lessons for small groups within each instructional block and independent work (centers/rotations) for the rest of the class, while you work with a few kids at a time. We were expected to do this for every subject area and were marked down if an administrator walked in and observed us doing whole group instruction.

Happens to be, I have a feeling the pendulum is going to start swinging again and things will normalize a bit. (Plummeting test scores and massive teacher shortages are being noticed.) It will still take a few years for that to trickle down and in the meantime I do not have regrets that I left an untenable situation.

ETA: I was not teaching in NYC.

amother

Dandelion ↓

Sun, Apr 09 2023, 5:00 pm

I am curious how much high school teachers get paid per period in MO schools? I live in Brooklyn and work in a yeshivish school and get $54/period (up from $50 two years ago BH). Wondering if it gets much better than that in MO bklyn schools. I happens to have a degree and teaching license but don't need it for the BY I teach in.