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-> Parenting our children
amother
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 Mon, Jan 23 2023, 10:37 pm
You can do so so so much by following your baby’s cues during the day. Do not underestimate it!
We did a terrible job of sleep training my baby when she was 7,8 months old. I just couldn’t handle it. Even though I’m really not a “crunchy” person it just didn’t sit well with me. Not getting any sleep also didn’t sit well with me lol
I ended up watching her wake windows and creating a great winding down routine and it really helped. Also, I think bottles before bed are better than nursing. It gave me peace of mind to know how much baby was getting and she also got a lot of milk in a shorter time—seemed to help her fall asleep more quickly and I wasn’t stuck nursing her to sleep for 1+ hours.
Once she was closer to 10 months, I was able to know the difference between her “mom, I need you” cry and “mom, I’m overtired and have FOMO” cry. The latter would only last 5 mins or less and she’d be out for the night. The former would last much longer if I allowed it to—that’s when I knew I should step in because she needed more attention for whatever reason.
I guess I believe it not sleep training till you really know your baby. I guess I’m pro following baby’s cues. But I also know how insane I felt when I was sleep deprived. I feel for you.
I’d say give the more “gentle” approach a try first. If that doesn’t work, then maybe re-evaluate.
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amother
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Mon, Jan 23 2023, 11:35 pm
I won’t respond to any replies to this post as all sleep training threads go the same way. It’s very hard to be objective about this topic - either you’ve resolved your exhaustion by sleep training and need to justify your choice by defending it now, or you’ve endured exhaustion because it’s too difficult to listen to their cries and need to defend against that. You are not a more loving mother for choosing one over or the other. If you want two cents from a mother who has sleep trained 3 children and would do it again, here it is.
I believe sleep training is unpleasant for the baby, and possibly somewhat traumatic. Do I know whether it will have a long-term traumatic impact? I do not, and the studies I have seen on the topic do not seem to find it to be so (see the book Cribsheet by Emily Oster). Certainly in the context of a relationship in which 100% of their other demands are met, I imagine the damage will be minimal. I allow my baby to cry for hours on end in their car seat too, if I need to get somewhere in the car. I imagine they will survive the sleep training exactly the same way. Crying is crying.
Do I feel guilt hearing my sweet baby cry despite knowing that sleep training gives me back my sanity, allows me to be a more functional mother to both my infant and my other children, and is over in a week or two? I do. It’s unpleasant and perhaps unnatural to allow one’s baby to cry. I do it anyway, for the reasons I mentioned. I can’t imagine even having more children if I knew that the cost was committing to put up with years of guaranteed exhaustion. So I weigh the vague and debatable potential of long term damage on my child with the definite poor quality of life I have in the present, which certainly has an effect on all my children, as well as the size of my future family.
If you are comfortable sleep training and have explored gentler methods, be consistent with a method but try to remain connected to your instincts in the process. I owe this to my baby. Rub your baby’s back when you come in for a check in. Stay with her for a few minutes even if she cries. Make sure she knows you’re her kind mother who is still around, no matter what. You can follow a consistent sleep training routine but still make it clear you are around and you care.
Also some practical advice, follow age appropriate wake times and make sure baby is getting enough day sleep (even if you need to rock to sleep) before attempting to sleep train. There is a holistic sleep picture, day sleep and night sleep work hand in hand.
Good luck whatever you decide. No mother here or elsewhere can determine whether you are good enough, loving enough, competent enough. Do what you, and only you, feel is right for you and your family.
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BrisketBoss
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Mon, Jan 23 2023, 11:41 pm
| amother Plum wrote: | You can do so so so much by following your baby’s cues during the day. Do not underestimate it!
We did a terrible job of sleep training my baby when she was 7,8 months old. I just couldn’t handle it. Even though I’m really not a “crunchy” person it just didn’t sit well with me. Not getting any sleep also didn’t sit well with me lol
I ended up watching her wake windows and creating a great winding down routine and it really helped. Also, I think bottles before bed are better than nursing. It gave me peace of mind to know how much baby was getting and she also got a lot of milk in a shorter time—seemed to help her fall asleep more quickly and I wasn’t stuck nursing her to sleep for 1+ hours.
Once she was closer to 10 months, I was able to know the difference between her “mom, I need you” cry and “mom, I’m overtired and have FOMO” cry. The latter would only last 5 mins or less and she’d be out for the night. The former would last much longer if I allowed it to—that’s when I knew I should step in because she needed more attention for whatever reason.
I guess I believe it not sleep training till you really know your baby. I guess I’m pro following baby’s cues. But I also know how insane I felt when I was sleep deprived. I feel for you.
I’d say give the more “gentle” approach a try first. If that doesn’t work, then maybe re-evaluate. |
Yes this sounds a lot like what I do. After a few months I start watching wake windows and sleepy cues and put baby down awake now and then. I may just be lucky with my babies but I 'get it right' most of the time and they go down pretty easy. (The forbidden tummy sleeping helps too.) At night if they wake up I listen to see if they really need to nurse or will settle themselves.
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tichellady
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Mon, Jan 23 2023, 11:41 pm
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people use the expression "cio" to mean all sorts of things. does it involve crying? probably it will. does it involve leaving your child to cry alone all night? no.
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amother
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Mon, Jan 23 2023, 11:44 pm
| tichellady wrote: | | people use the expression "cio" to mean all sorts of things. does it involve crying? probably it will. does it involve leaving your child to cry alone all night? no. |
Right. But OP specifically mentioned that she wants to follow the Ferber method which is basically CIO and very harsh. Especially on a baby that went through birth trauma. She needs to tread carefully find the most gentle method. But honestly, the baby wakes up to eat and goes right back to sleep, which is very normal. There's no valid reason to do ferber method on such a baby. He's not awake for hours at night unsettled and crying. Maybe they can try to give baby fuller feeds by day and right before bed, baby might not wake 3 times a night.
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amother
Pear
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 12:13 am
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Recommending “precious little sleep”
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tichellady
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 12:16 am
| amother Jade wrote: | | Right. But OP specifically mentioned that she wants to follow the Ferber method which is basically CIO and very harsh. Especially on a baby that went through birth trauma. She needs to tread carefully find the most gentle method. But honestly, the baby wakes up to eat and goes right back to sleep, which is very normal. There's no valid reason to do ferber method on such a baby. He's not awake for hours at night unsettled and crying. Maybe they can try to give baby fuller feeds by day and right before bed, baby might not wake 3 times a night. |
she said she needs to rock him to sleep for an hour. this doesn't sound like a baby who goes to sleep easily. I am not sure who defines what is harsh and what is gentle when it comes to sleep training. It's hard to know what will be result in less crying and more happiness for a baby. sometimes the methods that involve more crying are quicker. it's kind of hard to know. I do think being clear and consistent are the most important thing to the baby otherwise it's just very confusing that they can't predict what will happen when they wake up
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 12:19 am
| tichellady wrote: | | she said she needs to rock him to sleep for an hour. this doesn't sound like a baby who goes to sleep easily. I am not sure who defines what is harsh and what is gentle when it comes to sleep training. It's hard to know what will be result in less crying and more happiness for a baby. sometimes the methods that involve more crying are quicker. it's kind of hard to know. I do think being clear and consistent are the most important thing to the baby otherwise it's just very confusing that they can't predict what will happen when they wake up |
Rocking to sleep is still age appropriate, albeit frustrating for parents. There are gentle ways that don't involve leaving the baby to cry themselves to sleep. Even if CIO may be "quicker". Wanting a quick fix is the lazy, selfish, way out. A gentle way may take a bit longer, but it's better for the baby. Mom needs to do what best for baby, not what's quicker for her.
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amother
DarkRed
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 12:28 am
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Op, sleep training is the best thing. Your baby will be healthier and your mental health and marriage will be better. That being said, don’t do it without the guidance of a sleep trainer. I used www.babysleeptrain.com. She worked with us according to our comfort level which was no crying (or minimal). That and craniosacral therapy.
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tichellady
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 12:29 am
| amother Jade wrote: | | Rocking to sleep is still age appropriate, albeit frustrating for parents. There are gentle ways that don't involve leaving the baby to cry themselves to sleep. Even if CIO may be "quicker". Wanting a quick fix is the lazy, selfish, way out. A gentle way may take a bit longer, but it's better for the baby. Mom needs to do what best for baby, not what's quicker for her. |
I'm not an idiot. I have two kids who were terrible sleepers. I have researched everything about sleep training. I hate sleep training. I also hate feeling like I'm going to lose my mind from sleep deprivation. I don't think wanting a quick fix to not sleeping for 7 months makes anyone lazy or selfish. I also don't think that a gentle way is necessarily better for the baby. that is my point. my baby cried a lot when he would be rocked to sleep. he cried a lot when he woke up in middle of the night and couldn't go back to sleep. he cries less and is happier now that he sleeps better. no, I'm not super into sleep training and I wish I had a baby who slept well when put on a schedule, but it doesn't make me selfish or lazy to care about my own mental health and well-being and expect that I will be able to sleep for longer than a 3 hour chunk at night
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:35 am
| amother Maple wrote: | I won’t respond to any replies to this post as all sleep training threads go the same way. It’s very hard to be objective about this topic - either you’ve resolved your exhaustion by sleep training and need to justify your choice by defending it now, or you’ve endured exhaustion because it’s too difficult to listen to their cries and need to defend against that. You are not a more loving mother for choosing one over or the other. If you want two cents from a mother who has sleep trained 3 children and would do it again, here it is.
I believe sleep training is unpleasant for the baby, and possibly somewhat traumatic. Do I know whether it will have a long-term traumatic impact? I do not, and the studies I have seen on the topic do not seem to find it to be so (see the book Cribsheet by Emily Oster). Certainly in the context of a relationship in which 100% of their other demands are met, I imagine the damage will be minimal. I allow my baby to cry for hours on end in their car seat too, if I need to get somewhere in the car. I imagine they will survive the sleep training exactly the same way. Crying is crying.
Do I feel guilt hearing my sweet baby cry despite knowing that sleep training gives me back my sanity, allows me to be a more functional mother to both my infant and my other children, and is over in a week or two? I do. It’s unpleasant and perhaps unnatural to allow one’s baby to cry. I do it anyway, for the reasons I mentioned. I can’t imagine even having more children if I knew that the cost was committing to put up with years of guaranteed exhaustion. So I weigh the vague and debatable potential of long term damage on my child with the definite poor quality of life I have in the present, which certainly has an effect on all my children, as well as the size of my future family.
If you are comfortable sleep training and have explored gentler methods, be consistent with a method but try to remain connected to your instincts in the process. I owe this to my baby. Rub your baby’s back when you come in for a check in. Stay with her for a few minutes even if she cries. Make sure she knows you’re her kind mother who is still around, no matter what. You can follow a consistent sleep training routine but still make it clear you are around and you care.
Also some practical advice, follow age appropriate wake times and make sure baby is getting enough day sleep (even if you need to rock to sleep) before attempting to sleep train. There is a holistic sleep picture, day sleep and night sleep work hand in hand.
Good luck whatever you decide. No mother here or elsewhere can determine whether you are good enough, loving enough, competent enough. Do what you, and only you, feel is right for you and your family. |
Why do you allow baby to cry hours on end in their car seats because you need to get somewhere? That’s neglectful. Poor baby.
No baby should be left to cry for hours on end ever, sleep training or not. That’s really not ok.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:41 am
| amother Maple wrote: | I won’t respond to any replies to this post as all sleep training threads go the same way. It’s very hard to be objective about this topic - either you’ve resolved your exhaustion by sleep training and need to justify your choice by defending it now, or you’ve endured exhaustion because it’s too difficult to listen to their cries and need to defend against that. You are not a more loving mother for choosing one over or the other. If you want two cents from a mother who has sleep trained 3 children and would do it again, here it is.
I believe sleep training is unpleasant for the baby, and possibly somewhat traumatic. Do I know whether it will have a long-term traumatic impact? I do not, and the studies I have seen on the topic do not seem to find it to be so (see the book Cribsheet by Emily Oster). Certainly in the context of a relationship in which 100% of their other demands are met, I imagine the damage will be minimal. I allow my baby to cry for hours on end in their car seat too, if I need to get somewhere in the car. I imagine they will survive the sleep training exactly the same way. Crying is crying.
Do I feel guilt hearing my sweet baby cry despite knowing that sleep training gives me back my sanity, allows me to be a more functional mother to both my infant and my other children, and is over in a week or two? I do. It’s unpleasant and perhaps unnatural to allow one’s baby to cry. I do it anyway, for the reasons I mentioned. I can’t imagine even having more children if I knew that the cost was committing to put up with years of guaranteed exhaustion. So I weigh the vague and debatable potential of long term damage on my child with the definite poor quality of life I have in the present, which certainly has an effect on all my children, as well as the size of my future family.
If you are comfortable sleep training and have explored gentler methods, be consistent with a method but try to remain connected to your instincts in the process. I owe this to my baby. Rub your baby’s back when you come in for a check in. Stay with her for a few minutes even if she cries. Make sure she knows you’re her kind mother who is still around, no matter what. You can follow a consistent sleep training routine but still make it clear you are around and you care.
Also some practical advice, follow age appropriate wake times and make sure baby is getting enough day sleep (even if you need to rock to sleep) before attempting to sleep train. There is a holistic sleep picture, day sleep and night sleep work hand in hand.
Good luck whatever you decide. No mother here or elsewhere can determine whether you are good enough, loving enough, competent enough. Do what you, and only you, feel is right for you and your family. |
This post is really triggering me how you just nonchalantly excuse crying. If your babies are crying for hours you are doing something wrong. If your driving you need to pull over and assess what’s wrong with baby. It’s never an excuse to drive for hours with a crying baby. Also a baby who is crying for that long is for sure hungry, thirsty and sitting in a wet diaper at that point. It’s cruel to do that to your baby.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:46 am
| tichellady wrote: | | I'm not an idiot. I have two kids who were terrible sleepers. I have researched everything about sleep training. I hate sleep training. I also hate feeling like I'm going to lose my mind from sleep deprivation. I don't think wanting a quick fix to not sleeping for 7 months makes anyone lazy or selfish. I also don't think that a gentle way is necessarily better for the baby. that is my point. my baby cried a lot when he would be rocked to sleep. he cried a lot when he woke up in middle of the night and couldn't go back to sleep. he cries less and is happier now that he sleeps better. no, I'm not super into sleep training and I wish I had a baby who slept well when put on a schedule, but it doesn't make me selfish or lazy to care about my own mental health and well-being and expect that I will be able to sleep for longer than a 3 hour chunk at night |
But OP's baby is not crying at night. He goes right back to sleep when he wakes up at night. There's no reason to resort to a method that includes crying, when baby doesn't cry now.
And yes, using a harsh method because mom wants a quick fix, before trying other gentle methods, is the selfish lazy way out. I will not backtrack on that. There are other methods. And to right away use the harshest method because it is quick, is just lazy.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:47 am
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Just coming back to clarify that point - of course I try to comfort a crying baby in the car, check if something is bothering them etc. but if you need to get somewhere and the baby needs to be taken with, there are times you have no option but to let the baby cry. Sometimes you’re the driver, sometimes even sitting in the back seat singing to them they cry anyway. Some babies hate the car seat and they will cry no matter what. And if you’re stuck in traffic or it’s a long drive, it can be for a long time. It’s not safer to take the baby out of the car seat, though I admit I’ve done that too.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:51 am
| amother Maple wrote: | | Just coming back to clarify that point - of course I try to comfort a crying baby in the car, check if something is bothering them etc. but if you need to get somewhere and the baby needs to be taken with, there are times you have no option but to let the baby cry. Sometimes you’re the driver, sometimes even sitting in the back seat singing to them they cry anyway. Some babies hate the car seat and they will cry no matter what. And if you’re stuck in traffic or it’s a long drive, it can be for a long time. It’s not safer to take the baby out of the car seat, though I admit I’ve done that too. |
If baby is in a doona, try switching to a different car seat. Helped for my baby and other's I know.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:54 am
| amother Maple wrote: | | Just coming back to clarify that point - of course I try to comfort a crying baby in the car, check if something is bothering them etc. but if you need to get somewhere and the baby needs to be taken with, there are times you have no option but to let the baby cry. Sometimes you’re the driver, sometimes even sitting in the back seat singing to them they cry anyway. Some babies hate the car seat and they will cry no matter what. And if you’re stuck in traffic or it’s a long drive, it can be for a long time. It’s not safer to take the baby out of the car seat, though I admit I’ve done that too. |
Thanks for clarifying. If your baby is crying though you need to pull over. It’s never ok to just let the baby cry and cry because you need to get somewhere.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:56 am
| amother Jade wrote: | But OP's baby is not crying at night. He goes right back to sleep when he wakes up at night. There's no reason to resort to a method that includes crying, when baby doesn't cry now.
And yes, using a harsh method because mom wants a quick fix, before trying other gentle methods, is the selfish lazy way out. I will not backtrack on that. There are other methods. And to right away use the harshest method because it is quick, is just lazy. |
Jade, your posts are so on target.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:53 am
| amother Ebony wrote: | | That book is old school as well, skip it. She pushes for a 4 hour schedule which isn’t good for babies. |
Can you elaborate on that?
She suggests a 3 hour flexible routine where you also learn to follow babies cues and adjust according to that.
Yes there are somethings that I don’t agree with her I follow my common sense but she actually taught me how to read my babies cues really well. She teaches you how to respond to babies cries, and never suggests leaving your baby crying and never tells you to leave your baby hungry. She just differs a bit from attachment parenting theories which are far from universally agreed upon.
But overall you’ve been been judging and guilting ppl on this thread just for trying to be a good parent and keep their mental health intact in the process.
I started this when my baby was 6 weeks old and she had six - seven hour stretches at night since then, now at 4 months she sleeps up to 10.5 hour stretches at night and has 3-4 solid naps a day and is the happiest baby I’ve met, she hardly cries and when she does, I hold her and comfort her and she calms down almost instantly. She hardly wakes up at night, but if she does and is hungry I’ll feed her.
This method saved my mental health, I was going down a road of ppd and anxiety after she was born due the sleep deprivation, but according to a previous post by you, I should’ve sacrificed my mental health which is a great danger to my baby which basically is saying that I’m not fit to be a mom which is very hurtful.
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tichellady
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 11:38 am
| amother Ebony wrote: | | Thanks for clarifying. If your baby is crying though you need to pull over. It’s never ok to just let the baby cry and cry because you need to get somewhere. |
I disagree. sometimes you need to just get there even though it's terrible. like in a snowstorm, or on the way to the airport, or to your sisters wedding, or to an important doctors appointment . I try not to drive with my babies since they hate cars but sometimes you need to drive
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amother
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Tue, Jan 24 2023, 11:42 am
Here is actual research. Stop listening to mom shamers. Speak to your pediatrician about what age is appropriate. Good sleep is paramount to maternal mental health, which is in turn much more important for the development of healthy children. -Frum Psychologist, mother of several, emotionally healthy survivors of sleep training!
https://publications.aap.org/p.....ltext
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