moving to chicago?

ClaRivka ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 1:31 pm

This is the funniest thread ive read on the entire site.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:06 pm

RivkiA wrote:

This is the funniest thread ive read on the entire site.

um, why?

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:11 pm

because I live in Chicago and not one person has mentioned the FACT that money and yichus (last name) rule this entire city. And youre nobody unless you grew up here and youre family has established themselves as "known" people. Heck, my inlaws are VERY established people in the community, and yet, I'M not part of a clique so therefore I'm not accepted.
It's a great place we live in, not....
I'm bitter and I know it Smile

Tamiri ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:18 pm

I didn't want to write that cause it's sour grapes but it's true. We did not live in the "right" place or have "yichus" so no one talked to us except the nice odd-balls.

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:28 pm

Thank you Tamiri for validating my point and not making a huge fuss!

↑ Tamiri ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:30 pm

We weren't in the nursing home business.

Raisin

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:38 pm

mumoo wrote:

now ds wants me to ask an england Imamother for kosher skittles. where will it end?

sorry op for hijacking this thread for a minute.. embarrassed

skittles are not kosher anymore, as of a few months ago Sad

tell ds they weren't very good anyway!

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Sun, May 25 2008, 3:42 pm

Tamiri wrote:

We weren't in the nursing home business.

So True

Fox ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 12:10 pm

Wow, this has turned into a great thread! I love living in Chicago -- I can't imagine living anywhere else . . . yet RivkieA and Tamiri are both absolutely correct. Chicago can be a very tough town in which to get started. I think there are some historical reasons for this that are important to understand.

The post-war Torah community in Chicago was -- as were many communities -- significantly more modern than what we are familiar with today. Women did not cover their hair and cholov yisroel was virtually unknown. These families were all very close, married within their own enclave, and knew each other for several generations. Although there were some tremendous talmidei chochumim -- most associated with Skokie Yeshiva (HTC) -- they knew that the olam wasn't ready to be pushed into greater observance.

In the early 1960s, Telshe Yeshiva in Cleveland opened the Chicago yeshiva, and this began bringing new Torah-observant families to Chicago as well as giving Shomer Shabbos families who wanted to become more observant a focal point. About 10-15 years later, the Chicago Community Kollel (Lakewood) opened in West Rogers Park. The drift to the "right" had begun!

To say that this caused some friction is an understatement. The families who had served as a bulwark of Yiddishkeit in Chicago in the post-war years did not appreciate being told -- even by example -- that their practices were not up to the desirable standard. In addition, they missed the "good old days" when they knew every single Yid in town.

Matters were not helped by the fact that Telshe Yeshiva, located slightly out of the residential neighborhoods, tends to take pride in its reputation as a shtark place: not a lot of focus in the beginning on generating fuzzy feelings in the community at large. This only exacerbated the discomfort of the "old" families.

Throughout this period, there were divisions as schools split off, etc., leaving bruised feelings in their wake and the impression that one institution or another "thinks they run everything."

Concurrent with these developments was the increasing domination of nursing home money within the community. Unlike many communities -- including significantly smaller ones -- Chicago's mosdos are dependent on contributions from a single industry: nursing homes. While the first generation of financially successful families generally lived relatively modestly, members of the second generation began the familiar tear-downs and McMansion replacements. In many cases, these new homes dwarfed the neighbors houses, leading to resentment and less stable property values.

I have several relatively close friends as well as acquaintances who grew up in or married into "nursing home families", and the majority are wonderful people who are no more happy with the nursing home culture than we outsiders are. There are tremendous pressures vis-a-vis tzeddakah and "leadership" (read "getting your friends to give money"). And don't ask what happens when the State of Illinois is even later than usual in paying nursing home reimbursements! It's as if the whole community has to economically suck in for a few months!

Of course, the mosdos don't do anything to make relations better. They insist on seating nursing home people together at every possible event and are notoriously reluctant to stand up to any of the major players. Several years ago, I attended a chasunah that featured open seating. A very wealthy women whom I'd met because our sons were friends literally ran over and grabbed the seat next to me. She said, "I have to sit next to you while I can; they usually don't let me sit with the people I like. I always have to sit with the nursing home ladies."

Please let me acknowledge that not every family, yeshiva, etc., fits the general outline I've provided. Likewise, I've left out huge swatches of Chicago history, including Brisk Yeshiva, etc.

The irony is that there are really very few people whom I would characterize as anything other than wonderful. However, it can be tough to meet people and tough to find a chevra. The shuls tend to be small and not oriented toward social life. I've spoken with a number of people over the years about how we can make Chicago more "user-friendly", and we never seem to come up with anything. It seems as if people are welcoming and warm individually, but we can't seem to shake the "insiders only" aura that we give off as a community.

↑ Tamiri ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 12:21 pm

The problem is that all the nice Chicagoers left and made Aliya :D . Those of you who are left there are just a bunch of out-a-towners.

But seriously, there are real issues in all the communities there. Your explanations are commendable but... what you wrote doesn't cover the migration from the South Side of many people who WERE Torah knowledgeable. It doesn't cover snobby, cliquey Skokie. It doesn't cover inherent "issues" in WRP and PP.

Whatever, if you are happy there then it's a great place to shop. There is that Lands End outlet on Dempster and Kenosha too.

grin

Mon, May 26 2008, 12:36 pm

it's true that a very high proportion of chicagoans made aliya; half of my HS class did. and many of the Lubav's there are out-of-towners that came to college in chgo, did teshuva, and settled there.
but it's still a fact that the old west-side live on and on - no matter how far north they move!

↑ Fox ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 1:01 pm

Tamiri wrote:

The problem is that all the nice Chicagoers left and made Aliya Very Happy

. Those of you who are left there are just a bunch of out-a-towners.

But seriously, there are real issues in all the communities there. Your explanations are commendable but... what you wrote doesn't cover the migration from the South Side of many people who WERE Torah knowledgeable. It doesn't cover snobby, cliquey Skokie. It doesn't cover inherent "issues" in WRP and PP.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience in Chicago. I'm not sure what you mean by "a bunch of out-a-towners" -- this sounds like the attitude you were protesting: if you're not part of the original group, you're "just" an out-of-towner. Interestingly, I found many of the Aliya-oriented families to be the most judgmental, unfriendly, and obsessed with Chicago yichus. In fact, there have been a few to whom I waved goodbye happily. I guess perspective is everything.

As to "issues", I'm also not sure what you mean. I didn't mention any specific machlokes because (a) every community has them; (b) there's virtually no way to avoid loshen hora; and (c) they change every few years -- the argument that's raging today will be replaced by something else tomorrow. However, the underlying problems remain of being inaccessible to newcomers and relying too heavily on one industry.

I will admit to hearing a lot of complaints about Skokie, but again, it seems like most communities have a neighborhood that is a bit more expensive and, subsequently, appears to be snobbish. Again, my experience is that most Skokie residents as individuals are very nice people. I've never lived in Skokie, and I've only visited for Shabbos on a few occasions. I've certainly met a few snippy people, but no greater a percentage than I've met at Telz, Skokie Yeshiva, Veitzener Cheder, etc.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 1:05 pm

While I understand all that everyone is saying, I don't think that it is correct. Yes there is a division among many in the community based on what "Yeshivah" you belong to, or how much money you have but one can overcome this.
I am a native Chicagoen from a very big Torah family in Chicago and almost all of my friends are not originally from Chicago and are Baali Teshuvah and Garim. We don't care about the past, it is who our friends are now taht matter. Yes if we lived in Peterson Park or Lincolnwood maybe we would feel left out because we are not wealthy, but we live in West Rogers Park and are yeshivish. We fit in perfectly with our crowed and don't try to get into the other crowed, maybe things would change when we have children and or children make friends with other families. But for right now we don;t feel left out because we don;t have money and we don;t make others feel left out because I have Yichus, and inregard to the politics, we choose to stay out of it even though my family are leaders in the community and therefor involved in it.

↑ Tamiri

Mon, May 26 2008, 1:11 pm

[quote="Fox"]

Tamiri wrote:

The problem is that all the nice Chicagoers left and made Aliya Very Happy

. Those of you who are left there are just a bunch of out-a-towners.

That's a joke from an Ex-Nyer. Here in Israel, everyone came together and lived in the same cities, of course. No matter if you were from NY, NJ or... outta town like Chicago. So, once I moved to Chicago, our Chi friends in Israel told me: now that you know, will you PLEASE tell those NYers that we are NOT outta towners........!!!!!!!
To NYers, everyone except them are out of towners, in case this wasn't clear.

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 5:48 pm

I told you this was a funny thread! Tongue Out

↑ Fox ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 6:03 pm

I do believe that the problem of money and names is much less among people in their 20s. The bitterest complaints I've heard were from people age 35+ or people who came here over a decade ago. This may be why some people perceive a significant problem and others don't.

Likewise, there are now several major gevirim who are not in the nursing home business, which makes our community not only more financially stable, but also reduces the pressure on the handful of families that have traditionally supported most of our institutions.

I know that the Chicago Center for Torah & Chesed has had discussions to find ways to make newcomers feel more welcome, and I know several other rabbonim and/or organizations that actively attempt to make sure people find their place. It's just something we all have to continue to work on.

Strudel ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 6:04 pm

I moved to Chicago three years ago and have wanted to leave ever since. I never known such an unfriendly place- frum neighbors don't talked to each other. Apart from a few notable exceptions, there is very little chesed going on here. Plus, socially there;s not much to do- everything kosher closes by 9pm!

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 6:10 pm

when we moved here we were looking to buy a car. we wanted to lease a really nice SUV. my husband decided against it bc his father said that certain people wopuld hold it against us.
This is the mentality: if Yossi Abramovitz has a nice lexus then let HIM support the cheder.
Sick people. I cant wait to move.

May I mention that ive lived here for almost a year and a half and go to shul regularly and only 1 person there speaks to me.

Crayon210 ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 6:36 pm

RivkiA wrote:

I think this has more to do with your father-in-law than with the community you live in. Also, this mentality *definitely* exists in just about every community you'll ever visit or live in!

↑ ClaRivka ↓

Mon, May 26 2008, 6:59 pm

What does it have to do with my fil? My innlaws have lived here ever since after the war. My husbands grandfather had the first kosher grocery store on lawrence ave. He knows these people and know how they would react.