S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:54 pm

zaq wrote:

BTW, Torah Im Derech Eretz is also Modern Orthodox. In fact, the late Rabbi S.R. Hirsch is considered the father of Modern Orthodoxy, though the kehilla dedicated to his philosophy will deny this most vehemently.

Yup. They look at the prefixes. It's not Torah AND mada but Torah WITH mada.

Some where on Imamother there's a post with 2 links, one from Rabbi. ..Oh, I forgot his name but nicely done on why he's MO and the other was Rabbi Efrem Goldberg on why he's eschewing labels.

finprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:54 pm

CCwife: I am MO. I wear skirts that cover my knees, sleeves to the elbow, and cover with a tichel not covering my ears (so you see small triangles of hair and maybe the very edge of my hairline). I have a full-time job at a secular college so I'm exposed to everything in "the world"

I'm SS, kosher (DH was a star K mashigach) and keep TH."My Rabbi" is a "regular guy", with a "regular job" who happens to have semicha.

I would never consider asking my Rabbi about TV, internet, work, birth control, where to live, what schools to send my kids to, or any other "regular life" type questions. I only go to him with questions about religious observance, and only then if it is something that I did not learn sufficiently to know myself (I know what to do if I counted wrong or treifed up a pot etc).

IMHO the halacha is the same, it's the outlook on the world that is different.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:55 pm

sequoia wrote:

It’s useless.

For 17 years MO posters have been trying to convince chareidi posters that MO is an actual derech, with a history, hashkafa, and rabbis who pasken halacha and write books.

They don’t believe it.

I listen to a LOT of Michal Horowitz and some Rabbi Shay Schachter so I'm getting hefty doses of the Rav's and Rabbi Lamm's Torah. I don't know the implications Wink

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:57 pm

ccwife wrote:

Ok that makes sense. But I don't even mean the laymen. I mean the actual hashkafa and the Rabbanim that lead them.

For example, in my world (yeshiva world not so much yeshivish), our Poskim vehemently disagree on psak halacha sometimes. We have one Rav who holds it's a completely assur to use baby wipes and another who, based on his understanding of halacha, does not. Obviously there is no judgement if one follows their Rav. But each Rav gave his psak based on his mesorah and way that he understands the halacha.

Is the same true for MO. Are all of the Rabbanim following their Mesorah? I think I'm finding it hard to understand because if there was mostly one leader how is there such a discrepancy between the Rabbanim that are carrying on their mesorah?

But there's great mutual respect between people who do and don't use wipes. No one feels that that is a reflection of the overall derech and have concerns about the viability of the other's derech. Not the best example. There are technicalities of mitzvah and an overall approach to life.

ETA: I see Simcha2 clarified this early on p. 2 but I'll let it stand so no one wonders why I deleted a post.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ ccwife ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:59 pm

finprof wrote:

Hi! Sounds like you are RW MO, am I correct? If so you're not the type of MO I'm getting confused by. It really sounds like you represent much of how the Rabbanim in the MO world portray MO to be.

My question still remains about LW MO and their Rabbanim. Are they all keeping halacha and it's just a hashkafic difference between RW and LW?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:59 pm

kollel_wife wrote:

I grew up what we called modern orthodox and am now yeshivish. But I personally would describe modern orthodox very differently. But maybe this type of person doesn't exist anymore. My parents had some yeshiva/some Talmud Torah education (back in the 1930s and early 40s) and kept Shabbos and kosher. But they had very little knowledge of the details of Halacha or understanding or why it was necessary and/or important. They davened by reading silently with their eyes, carried on Shabbos when it was needed - like the keys to the house when there was no Eruv, didn't say brachos on food etc. When eating bread would only wash/bentch on Shabbos. They didn't have any concept of tznius from a Jewish point of view, only from a societal/moral point of view. They consider themselves Jewish and orthodox. They might ask a Rov questions if they made a pot treif or when sitting shiva, but otherwise were very unaware of halacha.

And where did they send to you school? What were their aspirations?

My grandparents didn't have the same Torah opportunities their kids had but they clung tenaciously to Shabbos. There were no other labels than that.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:00 pm

ccwife wrote:

Im super interested in meeting someone like that.
Like they really really keep halacha? Like their not cutting the cucumbers too small on Shabbos type? I'm having such a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

I don't know why it seems unsustainable to me, I have to think about it. It kind of reminds me of my friends grandparents who are very conservative didn't really pass it on strongly. Not their fault of course but when there's such hypocrisy it's not surprising that most of it fell to the side. This sounds different of course.

Part of being LWMO is not looking for stringencies in Halacha. So cutting cucumbers very small on Shabbat might not be an issue - but for sure they would not do anything that is a melacha (I’m trying to think of an example - rubbing a stain off on Shabbat maybe). But as people mentioned above not the entire community is going to be strong halachicly some are just lax or ignorant.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:01 pm

keym wrote:

I always thought the main difference between yeshivish and MO is the difference of opinion on remaining sheltered and separate versus extracting what we can from the secular world and not bshita staying separate.
Which is where the irony of R SR Hirsch being the father of the community comes into play, since he was a big proponent of keeping his community totally segregated from the general world.

The community was austritt, but they did interface with the world.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:02 pm

ccwife wrote:

You're right. I regretted the example after I posted Smile

. (Though R' Moshe held that wipes are fine and when my relative brought every brand of wipe to R' Dovid Feinstein, he was told they are all muttar. While my Posek who learned under R' Elyashiv only holds of specific ones. Point being that there is a little mesorah however contemporary it may be.)

I think my point applies for hashkafa as well. My mesorah is to follow the way our original RY learned in Slabodka and from the Alter specifically. His derech hachaim and focus on mussar comes from his Rebbeim. His mesorah for his learning style comes from his Rebbe in Radin. His son became the next RY and passed it on as well. Therefore all the talmidim of our Yeshiva strive to live in the way he taught and they all the learn based on his mesorah.

R' Kook is not that much older than our original RY. I'm curious as to what happened to the Rabbanim under him. Is that they didn't agree with him and adapted it to their own? I'm just not understanding how there can be such different hashkafic views in one sect.

The one answer I can think would be based on your point that we don't view daas Torah in the same way. Meaning R' Kook had his views and didn't want his followers to just copy him. Because if they did they would live like him. And if you say that the RW MO does for the most part carry on his mesorah the "best", that brings me back to my original question of how are the left wing viewed.

I'm truly trying to understand sorry to nitpick, thanks!

And I'm not sure about this analogy. True, many of the major yeshivos today - most? - are outgrowths of Slabodka. But I believe that Rav Yaakov zt"l said some time ago that mussar per se has not been transplanted to America. I don't think you have adherents of Slabodka the say way you have of Rav Kook, zt"l.

↑ ccwife ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:04 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Based on what though? My husband learns 2 Mishna Brura sedarim a day. That's Halacha not hashkafa. Is the Chofetz Chaim full of chumros, is that what they'd say? Do they have their own sefarim then written by LW MO Rabbanim?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:06 pm

ccwife wrote:

No I think it's me who's missing something Smile

. I think that in the Yeshiva world, Rabbanim mostly don't have their own opinions like that. A young Rav will call his Rav who has an opinion based on his Rebbi or Rav. Back to the daas Torah point - even our Rabbanim follow mesorah.

I think I was looking at the MO world through my "everything needs a mesorah" lense and it wasn't making sense. Now that I realize that, everyone's answers do work Smile

. Thanks for the explanations everyone! Sorry OP for detailing the thread so much!

But everything does need a mesorah. It needs to be filtered through halachic principles and precedent. Some people might interpret things differently though.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:09 pm

ccwife wrote:

What? Of course not. There is only one Mishna Brura - but do you understand that it’s forbidden to cut the cucumbers small or to chop them finely like grating?

↑ finprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:13 pm

Your confusion makes sense because the things I stated are common to both RW and LW. I identify as LWMO because I would attend a women's only Magilla reading or dance with the Torah (I haven't done wither, but I would) because nothing that I have learned has taught me that I can't do either. These ARE things that I did ask "my Rabbi" about. (He says both are fine)

↑ ccwife ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:13 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

What? Of course not. There is only one Mishna Brura - but do you understand that it’s forbidden to cut the cucumbers small or to chop them finely like grating?

The Mishna Brura says not to chop them finely because of tochen-grinding. (He also says don't give tochacha to people who do so it was the wrong example lol)

↑ ccwife ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Could be. But it's still our mesorah. And we won't budge from it. Even if it means that were more American than European. And if it means that we have not worked on ourselves to the point that our RY did. But it's still what we strive towards. (And we still have mussar sefarim and Rebbeim to teach us.)

And speaking of mussar I'm pretty sure this is bittul zman so I should log off but it's too interesting!

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 2:20 pm

finprof wrote:

I’ve done both - but don’t consider myself LWMO at all - more Center-right.