S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:22 am

finprof wrote:

Your confusion makes sense because the things I stated are common to both RW and LW. I identify as LWMO because I would attend a women's only Magilla reading or dance with the Torah (I haven't done wither, but I would) because nothing that I have learned has taught me that I can't do either. These ARE things that I did ask "my Rabbi" about. (He says both are fine)

I relate to her confusion also. Because it seems that you associate with LWMO in the various hashkafic things (laining, dancing with the Torah). Yet your mode of dress is "fairly conservative".
Yet someone else identifies as LWMO and it manifests itself as eating dairy in nonkosher restaurants and wearing tank top and shorts, yet remains apathetic to women learning or davening or dancing.

Do you consider both of you to have the same hashkafos?

I might be getting some of the vocabulary wrong so excuse me

↑ finprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:24 am

keym wrote:

I would say that someone who eats dairy out is less observant not LW.

↑ ccwife

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:29 am

finprof wrote:

Whoops, sorry for assuming! Though now I think I'm more confused than I was when I opened the thread Smile

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:31 am

finprof wrote:

I would say that someone who eats dairy out is less observant not LW.

Ok. That actually clears some stuff up.
I have a relative that keeps very very basic. Shabbos.
Kashrus- but eats dairy out
TH- but shares a bed, hugs and kisses during nidda.
Tank top, shorts, etc.

I always assumed they were LW.

But you seem to be saying that no. They're lite or less-observant. But unless we have a discussion about various halachic and hashkafic practices, we don't actually know if they're RW or LW.

↑ finprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:35 am

keym wrote:

The rules are the same for everyone but not everyone chooses to observe them. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that MO communities in general are open to allowing anyone to "join" the community even if they aren't fully observant. For example, my small OOT shul has many members who drive on Shabbos. They are not "lite" or LW, they just aren't fully SS! They are still welcome as full members of the community.

Isramom8

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:37 am

What would you say are the minimum requirements for being Orthodox? I know someone who is considering becoming Orthodox because it's authentic Judaism but has an issue with mitzvos really being necessary. I know that's nonsensical but this is where's they're holding.

This person is divorced. I said maybe try not driving on Shabbos, eating only kosher and not having relations with anyone till you marry a Jewish spouse and abide by mikvah.

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:40 am

finprof wrote:

These members that aren't fully SS. (Driving to shul for example). Are there any restrictions or rules about them? I don't mean their kids.
I mean I assume you wouldn't have one of them be a witness at your chuppah. Am I correct or not? Anything else?

↑ finprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:46 am

ccwife wrote:

Whoops, sorry for assuming! Though now I think I'm more confused than I was when I opened the thread Smile

This issue here is that you are mixing self-identified data with observed classifications and those rarely match up. For example, I may be of Lebanese descent and self identify as Arab, but an observer with limited exposure to my ethnicity and more exposure to the Latino community might say that I'm Hispanic and classify me as such. They would then be surprised to hear that my family's favorite dinner is kibbeh and I've never had a nacho. See where I am going with this?

Mermaidinexile ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:50 am

Great post, OP. This may have already been covered upthread, but I think one of the main differences is also what is emphasized in education, particularly women. For example, in yeshivish communities there is great emphasis in tznius. It's thought of as a "woman's avoda". There is great emphasis on reaching a certain standard of desirability through looks and behavior because at the end of the line all will be evaluated in shidduchim.

In MO circles, dressing modestly is just something you do but not something you have an assembly about. MO girls schools emphasize education and the goal of excelling in academics and Tanach and Torah she'be'al peh. As far as attaining your perfect match, it's bashert and depends on who you are, not how much you align with your community.

And I disagree that a benchmark of LWMO is attending a women's megilla. I am definitely NOT Left Wing and I both read for and attend women's megilla readings as they are firmly within the realm of halacha whereas I would never participate in an egalitarian minyan for example and do not eat dairy out. (Both halachically problematic). I do think there is crossover between LWMO and "lite"; LWMO serving as a somewhat more lenient version of MO.

Last edited by Mermaidinexile on Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

Fox ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:53 am

One of Modern Orthodoxy's strengths is that it spends limited time on gatekeeping. Conformity is demanded less and there is room for people who wish for more individuality in how they dress and conduct themselves.

However, one of Modern Orthodoxy's weaknesses is that it spends limited time on gatekeeping. There are many MO individuals who are learned, knowledgeable, and committed to Torah U'Madda. And there are also individuals who have no deep understanding of MO hashkafos -- they just don't want to be that frum.

Dr. Samuel Heilman identified this issue in his sociological study of an MO shul, Synagogue Life. The rabbi of the shul was frequently discouraged by this phenomenon, but he attempted to influence such congregants through example and ahavas Yisroel.

So when a woman in a tank top and miniskirt presents herself as "Modern Orthodox," there's no one to stand up and say, "Um, no. You may be aspiring to be Modern Orthodox, and we value that, but please go put some clothes on."

This is not always a bad thing. There are many people who grew up in irreligious homes for whom RW communities would seem too stifling. There are people who grew up in RW communities who need a little more air. Modern Orthodoxy provides a home for such people in addition to those who are truly committed to Torah U'Madda.

But the price Modern Orthodoxy pays for its tolerance and inclusiveness is that, frequently, its least-qualified members end up representing it to the rest of the Jewish world without much pushback from rabbonim or anyone else.
____________________________

Over the years, there's been a tendency for these kinds of threads to devolve into Purina Dog Chow contests ("My dog's bigger than your dog!"). That's a mistake. Communities are like husbands: they all have problems; you just have to figure out what problems you can put up with.

↑ finprof

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 11:56 am

keym wrote:

I wouldn't have them as a witness, but others might. I honestly don't know.

↑ chanchy123 ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:01 pm

keym wrote:

Why is it important to have the precise label? Who cares if she’s LWMO lite modern or RWMO?

↑ yamaha ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 12:27 pm

keym wrote:

Same restrictions and rules that apply when someone's not shomer Shabbos, I'm assuming.
So I assume most people wouldn't have them as a witness, given that Halacha has certain minimum requirements for a kosher witness.

↑ OOTforlife

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:06 pm

keym wrote:

People might not want to eat from their home, even if they keep kosher.

↑ Chickensoupprof ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:14 pm

keym wrote:

There are plenty of families like this who go to the big MO shul in Amsterdam, most of the children of that community will play with them. I belong in that sense to the 'chareidi' group (most of them whom have TV's, netflix etc but will wear sheitels and everything).
Basicially these families aren't fully SS or ignore the 2nd day yom tov. They will eat fish outside, will carry if the eruv is broken ( I won't even dare).

I think from this group especially in the Netherlands this is good enough and they don't really ask a rav, yet because their families always were member of the frum community (where erveryone in NL is from if you want to have chuppah and burial) and they feel this is the right way to do. They won't go to the reform shul at all, because they feel close to this community and israel but their kids are not going to jewish schools, don't dress tznius eat kosher-style or not kosher at all. These are families that the 'chareidi' group who sent their kids to the 'frum' school know but they don't let their children play is two different bubbles with different things.

shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:16 pm

ccwife wrote:

Got it. But would you ask if your home should have a TV? Or other hashkafic lifestyle questions? Most of my community wouldn't ask about names in the sense of tell me what to name my kid. It would be more like my great-grandmas name was a Yiddish name is the Hebrew substitute the same?

I'm thinking of 2 families. One very RW MO and one LW. Their hashkafos seem worlds apart. How often they daven, learn, wgat they do in their free time, etc. Are they really both what R' Kook or other leaders in the MO community had in mind? It could be there's no good answer to my question and I respect that.

CCwife, Im wondering why you keep referring to Rav Kook as a leader for the MO world. He is not. He never was. He was a chasid who believed in Israel. You can say the dati leumi community and more specifically the torani dati leumi kehilot, is where his teachings ended up, but most definitely not MO.

And also, NO, most MO people do not ask hashkafa questions to rabanim. Some do, but the majority do not.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:20 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Why is it important to have the precise label? Who cares if she’s LWMO lite modern or RWMO?

Honestly, I don't care what she does.
I'm curious for the sake of knowledge and academics.
It's about scholarship.
I'm going to try to explain without insulting anyone.
Conservative Rabbis have "paskened" that one may drive to shul on Shabbos because not to go takes away from the spirit of the day.
If I see a person in finprof's shul driving on Shabbos, I might think that LWMO paskens the same and that would be problematic to me.
Now, being told that the Rabbis dont pasken that way, and the people who do it are lite, or less observant or any other label one wants to put on, that tells me that the basic halacha is the same.
The interpretation is on smaller things. But her Rabbi holds the same as mine on the big things.

I really hope I'm not insulting anyone. If I am, I'll erase.

GreenEyes26 ↓

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 1:24 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

CCwife, Im wondering why you keep referring to Rav Kook as a leader for the MO world. He is not. He never was. He was a chasid who believed in Israel. You can say the dati leumi community and more specifically the torani dati leumi keholot, is where his teachings ended up, but most definitely not MO.

And also, NO, most MO people do not ask hashkafa questions to rabanim. Some do, but the majority do not.

Exactly. R’ Natan Slifkins new book addresses this difference in great detail.

I haven’t asked a Rav a shailah in years. I haven’t had the need to. Asking about lifestyle choices is not even something MO communities think about. It’s not structured that way. So OP, you’re approaching the MO viewpoint from a very yeshivish lens. You need a new pair of glasses, as it were.