Aguna update | Imamother

amother

Chambray ↓

Wed, Jun 16 2021, 11:58 pm

I am very pro Supporting the aguna. On another thread here where someone doubted a particular aguna I came down harsh and told her what cruelty she was doing by believing untruths about a victim of such injustice and cruelty.
However, despite appreciating the passion and support for Agunas here , I am really uncomfortable with some of the accusations being thrown about.
Someone asked what I hear as a legitimate question. Why do we have to smear the family. Is there truly a need for it. Do we have support for the need for it?
As a divorcee with life experience I would not always rush to blame the whole family. People, families and relationships are complex. There are times it does make sense to blame the family and times it doesn’t. Bc the extended family doesn’t always have influence. It really would be simpler if I could believe pressurizing the family would work, however I cant believe that that is universally true and I think the poster is asking a valid question.
You may believe that its always OK to pressure the family. I dont believe that always makes sense.
And further. I do appreciate your passion and hurt. And honestly consider myself your sister in arms. However, the nastiness leaves me truly uncomfortable and frankly less trusting.

I too get angry and can lose it with injustice. And that is appropriate. I’m just not comfortable with throwing the frustration at someone who asks a question from a place of not knowing all the information.

I support this cause. But not this method. By this method I’m referring to this thread.

amother

↑ PlumPink ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:05 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

I am very pro Supporting the aguna. On another thread here where someone doubted a particular aguna I came down harsh and told her what cruelty she was doing by believing untruths about a victim of such injustice and cruelty.
However, despite appreciating the passion and support for Agunas here , I am really uncomfortable with some of the accusations being thrown about.
Someone asked what I hear as a legitimate question. Why do we have to smear the family. Is there truly a need for it. Do we have support for the need for it?
As a divorcee with life experience I would not always rush to blame the whole family. People, families and relationships are complex. There are times it does make sense to blame the family and times it doesn’t. Bc the extended family doesn’t always have influence. It really would be simpler if I could believe pressurizing the family would work, however I cant believe that that is universally true and I think the poster is asking a valid question.
You may believe that its always OK to pressure the family. I dont believe that always makes sense.
And further. I do appreciate your passion and hurt. And honestly consider myself your sister in arms. However, the nastiness leaves me truly uncomfortable and frankly less trusting.

I too get angry and can lose it with injustice. And that is appropriate. I’m just not sure throwing the frustration at someone who asks a question from a place of not knowing all the information, leaves me uncomfortable.

I support this cause. But not this method. By this method I’m referring to this thread.

You don’t have to smear the family.

But confirmed enablers are a different story.
Protecting confirmed enablers imho is a crime.

amother

↑ Chambray ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:17 am

amother [ PlumPink ] wrote:

You don’t have to smear the family.

But confirmed enablers are a different story.
Protecting confirmed enablers imho is a crime.

But thats the point. A poster asked a question as to whether all the extended family being maligned are enablers
Everyone agrees that enablers can be criticized.
The question is , are you sure all these people being smeared are definitely enablers? and I think its a legitimate question considering how complex families and relationships are. And considering the damage done.
I’m hearing here that asking this question is tone deaf to the pain of the agunas. And shows caring more about the LH of the possibly innocent family. And I’m saying its not tone deaf. And its not insensitive to the aguna . Its a valid question and I m not comfortable with nastiness directed at someone asking it. Or at nastiness directed at family members who are not enablers. And I support the aguna hundred percent.

amother

Winterberry

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:21 am

Op, your being overly nasty and are really turning people off from the cause.
You’re doing more harm then good by being so nasty to posters who are not completely agreeing with you.
People can have a different opinion, unless you post in title that you don’t want any other opinions posted.

amother

↑ PlumPink

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:34 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

I agree with you. I don’t think we should bash anyone without research.

The issue is when we protect get refuser’s and their confirmed enablers by crying lh when we shouldn’t.

amother

Nemesia

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 12:58 am

Ok so I have been very vocal of not attacking the family of get refusers

This is different - I'm sorry but the family put themselves in there when they used the CC he/they opened in Sara's name and racked up 150,000$ in debt.

I was against the Silberberg family protests and posting minor children online. I was not thrilled with the Bais Rochel protests (protesting the school of the mother seemed wrong - I didn't mind protesting in front of her house as much) and in general I do not like this whole method of shaming all known associates of monsters.

I am not against fighting this family dirty - they have been fighting dirty.

amother

↑ Chambray ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 7:47 am

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

So thank you for giving the information
Not everyone knows the story. And it was a simple question as to why the family is being attacked and smeared. If theres reason there is reason. Raising the question doesnt warrant nastiness.
Not does it warrant - why comment if you don’t know the story. People are getting info here.
A simple. “In this case theres plenty evidence of the extended family enabling.” Would suffice.

Its a disservice to the cause of supporting agunas when people are mean. The tone of this thread made me embarrassed to be associated with the OP. Although I share her passion for the cause.

amother

Lily ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:12 am

amother [ DarkViolet ] wrote:

What makes me nervous is one time people were going after the mother of a get refuser

Until a trusted rav said he had told her he was allowed to live her. And she was trying to get him to the get. And he was very clear it was an issue d’araisa to harass her.

So ppl were wrong then and possible committed lashon hara or motzei shem ra bout her.

Are there any rabbanim in LA who could clarify.
Is the family trying to get him to give the get?
Are they convincing him to withhold?
How much does he have to do with them now?
Do they care?
Do we know?

We don’t know when that pic was taken - it could’ve been taken when he was still living with his wife - we have no frame of reference of the relationship from there.

Until this is clarified are we permitted to mock and bash the family?

Is there such a thing as a safe place for motzei Shem ra?

Saying this doesn’t mean you are minimizing the pain of the agunah

Or supporting the person withholding the get.

All it means is you want to know us the truth being told about his family.

We have been mislead before by social media.

Other then a single picture with no date or timeline I don’t know how his sisters are enabling him. Can you please explain?

Watch the video for the answers to most of your questions.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Lily ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:15 am

amother [ Winterberry ] wrote:

The annoying part is that the people asking these questions did not bother watching Dalia's video.
If they would hear the details they would not be saying that about this particular family.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Java ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:28 am

SafeAtLast wrote:

The annoying part is that the people asking these questions did not bother watching Dalia's video.
If they would hear the details they would not be saying that about this particular family.

I watched Dalia's video and I was not impressed by Dalia herself. She seems like she's getting a real kick out of spreading all this stuff. Like it's one thing if she's just doing it to help people but it seems like she's enjoying the attention and "hock" a lot.
If the stuff she's saying is true though, it's really awful and I hope the situation is dealt with really soon.

amother

↑ Arcticblue ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:32 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

You support the aguna in theory as long as she suffers in silence.

amother

↑ Quince ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:32 am

cutestbaby wrote:

Really? To me she seemed to be holding a big burden. She wasn’t her cheerful self, she appeared weighed down by this but also passionate about stopping corruption.

amother

↑ Lily ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 8:37 am

cutestbaby wrote:

Dalia was clear that whatever she was sharing was with Daas Torah and legal guidance.
People have kept asking her for updates, but she did not run her mouth.
The video was calculated and she shared only what she had to.
To me she looked uncomfortable. She smiled in a nervous way throughout the entire video, which is not her usually way of talking if you watch her regularly.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Chambray ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:05 am

SafeAtLast wrote:

The annoying part is that the people asking these questions did not bother watching Dalia's video.
If they would hear the details they would not be saying that about this particular family.

I’m not sure why you find it annoying that people didn’t watch the video and asked. It’s inconvenient and I guess annoying that you have to bother, but not annoying to the degree of the vitriol expressed here.
And no - I choose not to watch the video. For my own reasons.
Sorry to annoy you.
And yes I’m still a champion for agunas rights..

amother

↑ Chambray ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:11 am

amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:

You support the aguna in theory as long as she suffers in silence.

I’m really embarrassed to be associated with you. This vitriol is uncalled for. I am friends with an aguna and strongly support her. Your tactics, accusations and meanness are uncalled for.
This is not the thread I can be on. I pointed it out bc I think some posters are unfairly depicting those of us who support the agunas as negative , nasty people.
Ive said my piece. It doesn’t seem to have helped. So heres my repeat.

You are obviously trying to help and are coming from a good place. Please make sure you truly help and don’t do damage. Presenting those who support agunas as negative and nasty is not in the agunas best interest.
Passion is great. But not negativity and meanness.

amother

↑ Arcticblue ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:15 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

No vitriol, but it’s not very helpful to claim you support agunos but practically be uncomfortable with honest efforts to free agunos.

amother

↑ Chambray

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:23 am

amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:

No vitriol, but it’s not very helpful to claim you support agunos but practically be uncomfortable with honest efforts to free agunos.

You are doing it again. Accusations.
How do you know what I am doing or not to support agunos ?
All I said was to the -supporters :remember the cause. Don’t be a bad messenger and act with negativity.

If you cant hear it I’m sorry
I dont usually repear myself so often. For the sake of this important issue. I’m saying it again and again. Your negativity /baseless accusations is a major disservice to the agunos.
People will doubt you. I do. And thats not fair to the cause.
Please make sure you represent agunos with a presentation that will not hurt them.

Please please try to hear the point.
Over and Out!

amother

↑ Phlox ↓

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 9:40 am

amother [ Arcticblue ] wrote:

You support the aguna in theory as long as she suffers in silence.

This is sadly true for many "supporters" of abusers of all flavors.

And nearly all abusers have a "story" or a "justification", and true support for victims is in some way confrontational and demonstrative--whether it's in public or private, quiet or loud, etc. and it's too messy and uncomfortable for most people--somehow except for those people energized to do so for the abuser. It's too hard to use gevurah when we need to it seems---everyone wants to solve all the problems with chessed and being "nice" and "comfortable" and "polite"(to a fault).

stblcsw

Thu, Jun 17 2021, 10:39 am

Can somebody explain to me why everything that’s stated by Dalia is taken as fact and obviously in accordance with rabbinic guidance? She has done so much good for this cause and brought exposure to a huge issue in our community and we should all be thankful to her for that. However, when we get to a point of her making jokes (on a live that has been viewed tens of thousands of times) about alleged plastic surgery of people related to a get-refuser; it might be time to take a second and consult our own rabbis what we should believe and how far we are allowed to take this. To reiterate, it is indisputable, IMO, that dalia has done an immense amount of great work for this cause; but that does not mean for certain that every word stated by her about others is accurate. Show me a siruv from Bais din, that’s good enough for me. Tell me a woman spent thousands of dollars on a stolen credit card with no proof provided (as far as I’m aware), I don’t see how anybody could blindly accept that.