7 year old daughter does not want to daven in shul on Shabba

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Starhavah ↓

Sun, Dec 02 2007, 11:05 pm

Ok, this is the deal. DD does not want to daven in shul. Our shul only has about 30 member families so there are not enough to have a children's program. If I bring her in to daven with me, she wines and grumps that she wants to play in the gan with the other kids (most of whom are younger). Her best friend at shul (a girl) does not come often since mom only comes for kiddush, if she comes at all. Her next best friend is a boy a year older (3rd grade). They play together a lot. He has just started leading Annim Z'meriot and Adon Olam. I can usually force her to come in starting with Adon Olam since her friend does. But she spends all of her time grumping that it is "not fun". She looks through the mechitza, but she will not go over there and even prayers she knows by heart she doesn't want to say.

I think she is old enough to be in the davening room for Shma and repetition of the Amida. Although, with a different attitude. DH says no. He says she will not be quiet and children should be totally silent during teffillah. He does care that she never davens except at school. If I bring her to the women's side. DH reams me out after shul or comes over gets her and tells her to go play in the gan. Which is what she wants and why she is making noise to begin with.

Also, I teach Sunday School. DD does not get up early enough on Sundays for me to force her to daven with me. DH regularly does not get her dressed let alone, make her daven in the morning.

The ironic thing is, I substitute teach at her school and the teacher who oversees the 2-3rd grade davening is a friend of mine. She says, and I observed when subbing, that in school my daughter is a leader for about half of Shacharit. She uses a clear, loud voice and is always one of the first kids to start davening. Unfortunately, she sits with girls (in teffillah at school) who either do not live near us, or come from less religious families and the girls do not go to shul, nor do they daven at home.

How old were your daughters when they started davening? What can I do to get DH to start feeling that DD needs to daven in shul? How can I get her to realize that davening is not "just for boys" and in school? I hold by RAMBAM and daven every morning (bli neder), but often DD is not awake when I do and even when she is it is hard to have kavana and daven with her pulling on my skirt to get her something or ask me a question. DD never sees DH daven.

What to do, I am at a loss? Any advice would help. What

Star Havah

Mommy3.5

Sun, Dec 02 2007, 11:31 pm

I think seven is a bit young to expect to daven in shul. I think age 9/10 is more reasonable.

happyone

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 12:00 am

Mommy3.5 wrote:

I think seven is a bit young to expect to daven in shul. I think age 9/10 is more reasonable.

It's quite young. I find if you make an issue when they are that young, they resent it eventually.

peach

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 12:21 am

I agree. I think that it is quite understandable that she doesn't want to, as at that age it can be, for lack of better word, boring or unexciting for a child. From an adult's perspective, we see the enrichment and fulfillment, but try to view it from her perspective. I think that if you push the issue, she will come to resent davenning in the long term. Good luck!

RedRuby

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 12:23 am

I agree with above 2 posters. If she's davening beautifully at school, then it is a power struggle with you at home on the weekends.

Also, you wrote:

Quote:

DD does not get up early enough on Sundays for me to force her to daven with me.

Maybe you didn't mean to use such a strong word, but "force" is strong word, sure to put a bad taste in her mouth regarding davening.

I would compliment every/any bit that she does, mention that her teacher at school says she davens really nicely, and drop it for now.

red sea

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 12:36 am

And I agree too, 7 is too young for most children,.

mimivan ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 12:43 am

I don't daven in shul. Would I expect a daughter (at any age) to?

There was another thread "a woman's place is in the home" LOL

(I'm kind of joking, so no one get upset by that quote)

I know women who have older children and don't go to shul because they can daven with more kavanah at home, and because a woman is not obligated.

"The glory of a bat melech is within."

Tamiri

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 1:29 am

OP I am wondering: are you perhaps BT? Perhaps so, and then you can't remember what you did in shul at age 7? I don't think there are too many kids, boys OR girls who can do what you want your daughter to do. I know that I was still running around or just staying home at that point. Davening comes from within. You can't force it upon anyone. It's very good that she sees davening at school as fun (as opposed to shul being "not fun") and I would praise her for that and leave it alone.
I don't think you can expect her to be ready for a shul Amida before she is 9 or 10.
There are some amazing kids who seemingly sit quietly from the age of 3 but those are few and far between.
Just let her be a little girl for a while longer, it's no reflection of your own devotion if she's not focused on such adult stuff when she's 7.
Good luck.

grin

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 1:59 am

I've discovered the hard way not to impose davening on the weekends. What I usually do is offer a treat if I know the kid davened (ie I heard them, they sat next to me, etc) If they claim to have but I really can't be sure, then I just say that it's quite possible that you davened, but I can't give you the treat. (Not to discount them or imply they're lying, which can be worse.)
B"H when they reach their teens, they are davening and that's what's important. (I've discovered on this site a number of women who admitted to not daven to this day because of too much sternness from their parents.)
About girls davening in shul, it's really not an obligation and not something that should be forced, but something they can choose to do. (I don't go to shul often myslef, anymore, either.)
I personally don't allow the shul to be thier playground - I ask her what she's going to do in shul. (7 really is pretty young to follow the ba'al tefila for so long, no?) if she admits that she's going to play (and she can feel free to admit that, since I'm not punishing her for it or holding it against her), then I suggest she go to a neighbor to play instead.

greenfire ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 9:24 am

you are never too young to daven in shul ... you just have to moderate how ... make it just a few things like brochos and shema ... with a treat "pekela" when she is done - and let her play outside as well ... so you can all have a little of what you need ... tell her to come back during kriah for a bit and if she sits nice she can have another treat and go out and play some more ...

DefyGravity

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 9:36 am

I think seven is too young to expect her to daven in shul. If anything, forcing her will just get the opposite of the reaction that you want from her.

gryp

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 9:56 am

I think it is reasonable to insist she davens next to you the Tefilos she usually davens in school- by herself, not with the minyan- and when she's done, she may go play.

Or, she may play, but when the Chazzan is up to Shema, she needs to come inside and say Shema with everyone, and then she may go outside again and play for the rest of the time. Perhaps you can have her come back in to kiss the Torah if that's done in your shul, for Aleinu at the end, or whatever.

On Sundays, I would make a davening chart for her that she works towards earning something special. Or a special activity after davening, or something like that.

7 is a bit young to expect them to daven on their own when they're not sitting in a classroom, but not too young to know that we daven every day.

Make it pleasant- don't force. It will just put a bad taste in her towards davening. Perhaps you want to make a specific time that is "Davening time" for her on Sundays, if it's easier for her to stick to a schedule.

chocolate moose ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 10:10 am

There is a woman in shul whose kids just sit there like matza balls. Until they fight, of course. Almost every time she comes to shul I have to ask her to leave.....if her girls would sit quietly, I woudn't care so much, but to cause trouble on a regular basis is unfair. Our shul is much too crowded for that.

Starhavah, is it your daughter does not want to daven, or does not want to daven in shul ?

morningstar

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 10:48 am

Star Havah, sounds like your daughter has figured out how to play you and your dh off against each other. Your husband wants it quiet in shul, so she knows by making noise, you will be forced to back down and let her play.

Your expectations don't sound unreasonable to me. A seven year old can participate quietly in shul for 15 or 20 minutes.

Does your daughter like playing in gan/being in shul for the rest of the morning? Because if so, I might try a different technique for getting her to cooperate.

Basically, shul is a special place wehre we come to be able to daven nicely.
If she is old enough to sit with you for twenty minutes, then you are happy to bring her to shul. If she is not, then she can stay home with you Shabbos morning . . .and we can try again next year. Try not to make this a punishment, but her "choice"-- either she chooses to come to shul and do what we come to shul for, or she can stay home.

Alternatively, if staying home all morning is not an option (or too attractive an option), you can make staying for kiddush contingent on nice davening. Again, I would not present this as a punishment but a choice . . . she can choose to site with you and then stay for kiddush, or, if she is not in for davening, she can go home with you before the kiddush.

Same for Sundays. I would not nag. But I would be very firm and make clear there are certain things that you only do with children who have gotten up to daven . . .

Good luck.

↑ Starhavah ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 2:44 pm

Tamiri wrote:

OP I am wondering: are you perhaps BT? Perhaps so, and then you can't remember what you did in shul at age 7?

I am BT but when I was 7 years old I was begging my parents to take me to shul. I knew what it entailed and they still went to shul and left me with a babysitter. I wanted to be involved in shul as I saw that as the "way to be Jewish", of course now I know better. We are Jewish all the time. LOL

Tamiri wrote:

I don't think there are too many kids, boys OR girls who can do what you want your daughter to do.

Ok, I see that I must be pushing her in an unnatural way. I will stop. Being BT, I do not have anyone in my family I can ask when is it normal to start davening and such. Both DH and I are BTs. We are both the frummest people in our families. We have no role models. I just figured that she should be using the skills she is learning in school at home.

Thanks for your advice,

Star Havah

Thanks

↑ Starhavah ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 2:55 pm

mimivan wrote:

I don't daven in shul. Would I expect a daughter (at any age) to?

Yes, but I do daven in shul on Shabbat.

mimivan wrote:

I know women who have older children and don't go to shul because they can daven with more kavanah at home, and because a woman is not obligated.

Not obligated is not the same thing as forbidden.

If they have more kavanah at home, good for them, that is where they should daven. I have more kavana on Shabbat in shul. During the week I have more kavana at home (I can't stand the way the men race through on weekdays).

Star Havah

TzenaRena ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 3:00 pm

I agree with morningstar, GR and greenfire. It might be too much to expect her to sit by your side for the entire davening and Kerias HaTorah, but definitely she can do so for the amount of time suggested by other posters. I think greenfire had some good ideas.

When my dd was younger, around your dd's age, give or take a year, I bought her pretty pearl earings as a gift for davening nicely inside shul, she was allowed to go play during leining. I would remind her to come in for kedusha.

↑ TzenaRena

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 3:02 pm

On weekends, you can daven together. Sing the davening with her, especially kabbolas Shabbos, sing Lechu Neranenah, Lecho Dodi...

happymom

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 3:18 pm

I dont think its ever a good thing to foce a child to do something when it comes to spiritual matters. they will only grow to hate it. just be a good example and talk about doing the right thing in a pOSOTVE way

amother ↓

Mon, Dec 03 2007, 3:29 pm

I daven at home on Shabbos with my daughters. Then we make kiddush or go to kiddush at shul.
7 is way too young to bring her to shul and expect her to sit for any great length of time. Davening in shul is a lot different than davening in school.
Daven with her at home and then go to shul. Try just going for the last 10 minutes or so and gradually increase the time as she gets older, if you would like for her to go to shul. You don't want to force her to go and end up having her not like being in shul at all.

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