7 year old daughter does not want to daven in shul on Shabba

triLcat

Sat, Dec 08 2007, 10:27 pm

I agree with many of the previous posters. As the rabbi's daughter, I was expected to sit quietly at shul and daven when other kids played.

Kabbalat Shabbat, when there's a lot of singing, I was okay. Shabbat morning went on FOREVER. I used ANY excuse to escape. I'd go to the bathroom as often as possible for as long as possible. I'd offer to watch people's little kids so they could daven. Absolutely anything. It was total torture. I was only really able to handle a whole Shabbat morning service when I was about 12, and even then, it felt like too much.

As an adult, I go for Kabbalat Shabbat and musaf. For a long time I wouldn't go in the morning at all, ever, because I hated that I was forced to sit for so long. Now that I am married and have a baby, I want to establish good patterns in my family.

My suggestion for Sundays is to ask her to daven shacharit alone and then daven mincha with her. It's "short and sweet" and you can be there with her. Sing it out loud exactly the way they do at school though.

I think it's a real shame that in many communities, women don't go for kabbalat Shabbat. When I was with my husband in Toronto last winter, we literally went to three different shuls before we found one where I was able to kick the men out from the women's area so I could daven Kabbalat Shabbat (I.e. there were only 2-3 men, so I didn't feel very bad asking them to make a place for me)....

Reminds me - during my sheva brachot, my husband didn't want me away from him at all. We went to shul for minyan, and you should have seen a few friendly folk scurry to clear out the men's section and put up the mechitza so I could be inside... It was one of those moments you truly feel special as a kalla Smile

↑ mimivan

Sat, Dec 08 2007, 11:24 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

There is a woman in shul whose kids just sit there like matza balls. Until they fight, of course. Almost every time she comes to shul I have to ask her to leave.....if her girls would sit quietly, I woudn't care so much, but to cause trouble on a regular basis is unfair. Our shul is much too crowded for that.

Starhavah, is it your daughter does not want to daven, or does not want to daven in shul ?

CM:
I admire your gutsy approach as usual! How much better is the direct approach than having to sit there wondering if those "looks", clearing throats etc...are intended to be directed at us or not. How refreshing it would be to have someone be honest!

(in case anyone is wondering, I am writing this without a drop of sarcasm!)
and yes, I have learned not to take my kids to shul. It is a reward for when they are mature enough to respect shul. If only someone like CM would have been there to help me "wake up: then so I wouldn't have to spend a year or so having to figure out that yes IT IS TOO HARD!!!!

(kind of a vent, but relevant to the issue, I think)

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Sun, Dec 09 2007, 6:29 am

Of course, it might backfire. Those whose kids don't get taken to shul might find out that thier kids might not want to daven in shul the future, and thereby won't know the davening...

Case in point, when my dd who went to overnight camp, and they davened Kabbolas Shabbos and Maariv, and she had never heard of it !!! They thought she was a "beginner".

Thanks for your support, but it's a very hard call, mimivan.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Dec 09 2007, 6:49 am

I am in a similar, but worse situation. I have this with a boy who is 11. He will have his bar-mitva in less than 2 years, and he still only wants to play outside and will not daven with his father. His Rebbe informs us he barely davens at school either.
We have sought advice from numerous mechanchim and rabbonim, and they all have given the same advice. Leave it alone. He must come to shul, he must stay in shul from x point in the tefeela until y point. He must spend 20 minutes in his room with a siddur on non-yeshiva days, but that's it.
We have been assured by those more experienced and knowledgable than us that one day, he will know from within himself that he has to daven, and he will do it.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Dec 09 2007, 8:55 am

Every child is diff. But one thing I can assure you, forcing them will get you nowhere. I wasn't going to post as amother until I decided to respond to amother above me. I fully understand about your 11 year old. Been there, done that. To the point that his bar-mitzvah teacher who knew him from shul chareged us more to teach him than his older brother because of the "challange". I will not bore you with the details because the advice you got is right on target. He did amazingly well at his bar-mitzvah, even davened mussaf, he has a beautiful voice, loves to sing & most importantly didn't want to be embarrased. I can't tell you what prompted the change, we thought it would be after he did so well, but not to be. After barmitz we still fought him to get up for shul, not as bad though. Then one day maybe age 15 we realized wqe were no longer fighting him. Now in yeshiva he is the 1st one to davening.

But this is same to you & starhavah. Don't force. Gently encourage, set age & maturity level guidelines & expectations. With love & ahavas Hashem it will come. Starahvah, expecting dd to sit for parts of daveneing, while in theory is great think of yourself jumping up & down to get her in for shema, then she can leave agian for a few minutes & then you have to run & break up her game agian for K'dusha..... maybe not so practical.

↑ Starhavah

Mon, Dec 10 2007, 12:54 am

amother wrote:

Every child is diff.

Truer words were never spoke!

amother wrote:

But one thing I can assure you, forcing them will get you nowhere. .

I really misspoke. I have never tried to force her to daven. I have strongly encouraged however. Offered prizes, etc. I know that forcing her won't work.

amother wrote:

But this is same to you & starhavah. Don't force. Gently encourage, set age & maturity level guidelines & expectations. With love & ahavas Hashem it will come. Starahvah, expecting dd to sit for parts of daveneing, while in theory is great think of yourself jumping up & down to get her in for shema, then she can leave agian for a few minutes & then you have to run & break up her game agian for K'dusha..... maybe not so practical.

That actually is what I do. I want her in the sanctuary for Shma and repetition of the Amida. That is all, but like I said she isn't interested since none of the other kids come in for that. There is a group of older girls that come in for both silent amidas but they are getting close to bat mitzvah and do not play with her, so she does not see them as contemparies. I have had a small (very small) amount of sucess getting her to come in starting with Adon Olam because her male friend often leads that and Animim Zmeriot, but even then she complains and tries to get out.

It wrecks my kavana to have her in the teffillah room with me but I want her to see positive models of davening.

To the mother who said her daughter was thought to be a beginner at camp since she did not even know of Kabbalat Shabbat or Maariv. THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!
I had nver even thought of those! I doubt DD even knows what they are! She probably thinks mincha is for "babies", not realizing it is a real service since her school the first grade davens mincha in the classroom when they are learning the services and all the other grades daven Shacharit only. When they have a teacher who is saying Kaddish they get the older kids together for Mincha, but since the school only goes through 8th grade, they do not have an afternoon minyan until spring.

Star Havah

ChossidMom

Fri, Jan 18 2008, 5:44 am

I don't go to shul (haven't since I started to have kids). Only for Parshas Zachor and Yomim Noraim. The few times I did go to shul my daughter loved to come with me but I NEVER made her daven. She had to ask me if she wanted me to show her the place. Now that she is 10 she likes to be in shul with me and say Shmone Esrei (like on Rosh Hashana). But - seven years old? Give me a break. I can barely get my 7 year old son to go to shul! I would never, never force a girl or even push her in the direction of sitting in shul. It's so not a woman's thing in my community. When a girl gets close to Bat Mitzva, then, it takes on more importance. But not on Shabbos, I don't think. It's perfectly fine for a girl to daven at home IMO. I don't even think that there is an inyan of chinuch with a girl davening in shul. I'm sure someone here will be convinced I'm wrong and try to correct me...

↑ chocolate moose

Fri, Jan 18 2008, 7:41 am

Starhavah wrote:

To the mother who said her daughter was thought to be a beginner at camp since she did not even know of Kabbalat Shabbat or Maariv. THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!
I had nver even thought of those! I doubt DD even knows what they are! She probably thinks mincha is for "babies", not realizing it is a real service since her school the first grade davens mincha in the classroom when they are learning the services and all the other grades daven Shacharit only. When they have a teacher who is saying Kaddish they get the older kids together for Mincha, but since the school only goes through 8th grade, they do not have an afternoon minyan until spring.

Star Havah

That was me.