Do you find rules stifling?

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:10 pm

cbsp wrote:

There are many times that R' Moshe will go through whether something is permitted or not, say that it is permitted, but will also include that "a ba'al nefesh should be machmir" (the psak on "chalav ha'companies" comes to mind).

So yes, it's a fact that R' Moshe was not anti-chumrah.

Is that what you thought I said? Wow, I guess I'd better work on my communication skills ASAP!

The definition of a chumra, AFAIK, is going beyond the letter of the law. A chumra, at least where I come from, should not turn into basic halacha. An example that immediately comes to my mind is the four inch below the knee rule. My understanding is that it's a chumrah (for example, if you are wearing a flary skirt), but many teach this as basic halacha. That kind of thing. Or, like my brother was told by one of his Rabbeim- O-U is traif. You can say that you don't eat O-U, but traif it most certainly isn't.

In any case, I thought I wrote that I was not really talking about chumras, but rather arbitrary rules that people make up. I dont like when people do that. An example of that, I think, is the no pictures of women rule. Someone posted on the other thread three quotes from Rabbanim who are against this. There are many other examples...

↑ cbsp

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:20 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Is that what you thought I said? Wow, I guess I'd better work on my communication skills ASAP!

You quoted this, and bolded the last line:

amother wrote:

This is about attitude not about fact. There were people who struggled in the same way but didn't krechtz about it. R Moshe was saying that we need to give over the joy of yiddishkeit to our children. he was not saying that we should not keep chumros.

You then asked if that was fact or opinion. The implication is that your question addresses the part you bolded... So I answered in that vein...

↑ Mommyg8

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:46 pm

cbsp wrote:

You then asked if that was fact or opinion. The implication is that your question addresses the part you bolded... So I answered in that vein...

I just re-read this... my understanding was that Rav Moshe paskened basic halacha, and then pointed out the chumrah. I understood that he did NOT say that everyone must follow the chumrah. There's actually a story going around the yeshiva world (unverified) where someone asked if he should be machmir. He was asked - do you like ice cream? Then you are not a baal nefesh. Again, this story is unverified, but it does seem to have some basis.

Yes, I really do think that when we make Yiddishkeit something that's too serious and joyless, you will lose some. That's just my opinion. I think the movement towards more and more rules is just not going to have a happy ending. Again, JMHO.

amother

↑ Jade ↓

Thu, Aug 02 2018, 12:38 am

I think there is a basic misunderstanding here.

A chumra in halacha is something that a person takes on himself because he wants to come closer to Hashem by putting up a geder which will prevent him from overstepping the boundaries of halacha even by mistake. By the very fact that the desire to come closer to Hashem is the purpose, it will not feel stifling because the end result outweighs the difficulty.

In fact that is what R Moshe was pointing out about shmiras shabbos. If they would have realized that they are not losing out from it, they would not find it difficult. The shverkeit comes when a person feels he is losing out.

The problem comes in when one person forces another person to take on a chumra not from a desire to come closer to Hashem but either in order to fit in with a certain group or in order to get a certain result. No Rav will force you to keep it. He might tell you that he recommends it but he will not tell you you are over on an aveira by not doing it. But when the person himself chooses to take it on, it will feel positive not negative.

It is this positive "I do it because I am happy to serve Hashem" that R Moshe warned us we must give over to our children.

In terms of R Moshe recommending chumros, I am sure he did. The purpose of a chumra is to make sure you don't overstep the boundaries of halacha. It has its place. However, I am sure he knew who he was talking to when he said it.

A person who wants to fit in to a certain kehila needs to give over to their children the idea that "we are so happy to be part of this kehilla that all these extras are worth it." otherwise, the children will have a bad attitude to rules.

What I find absurd on this site is people who are coming and yelling about other people's chumros. No one asked you to take them on! They may be very happy to do it because the result outweighs the difficulty.

If you knew you had to live in a shack for a month in order to receive an all-paid-for mansion at the end of the month, you would sing and dance your way there!!! and if in order for that mansion to be next door to your friend the shack had a leaky roof, you would jump for joy!

↑ Chayalle

Thu, Aug 02 2018, 8:50 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And my father considered the O-U, at various times, to be the best hechsher there is.

Kinda OT - my father did not trust private mashgichim as much as an organization.

He once was talking to a guy who was a mashgiach in a restaurant, and the guy told him, if you come to the restaurant, you can order the fish, but the meat is not the best shchitah. My father was furious - you are the mashgiach in this restaurant, and you allow a shchita that you advise others not to eat. So you are doing this job for the money, and you have no neemanus.

My father has a whole series of CD's on Halacha from R' Belsky and DH has been running them in the car.....it's fascinating. He debunks the Kashrus theories of so many holier-than-thou people who are basically ignorant of the issues. Listen to him discuss shechita and everything you thought you knew basically goes out the window.....He was absolutely brilliant. He says alot of these people who think a small private shchita is better, no nothing of shchita. He talks about how he took a Rav who was saying not-good-things about a certain shchita down to the shlachthouse, and the guy didn't know what he was talking about, about basics. But then he posts Kol Korehs against it. Makes no sense.

That Rebbe may have known how to teach Gemarah, but not sure his knowledge of Hashgacha and Kashrus was up to par. Pit him against someone like R' Belsky (what a loss) and he would be mincemeat (no pun intended).

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Aug 02 2018, 9:35 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

Thats cuz it's coming from Hashem. Not some guy who sees himself as the next Moshe Rabbeinu and thinks that you aren't doing EXACTLY what his grandmother happened to do in Hungary, you are upgefuren

speaking about Hungarian Yidden. There is a fascinating anecdote with the Chazon Ish who was the trailblazer in Eretz Yisrael for things we take for granted today:
Frum farmers not making use of milk that was milked on Shabbos.
Tremus, Umaasros.
Frum retail grocers/ fruit stores to sell produce that was not grown during shmitta and countless other things.
As he was facing an uphill battle time and time again, he announced: WAIT TILL THE UNGARICSHE YIDDEN wiill come and we these halachos will be standard.
His words were prophetic.

amother

↑ Jade ↓

Fri, Aug 03 2018, 12:05 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Thats cuz it's coming from Hashem. Not some guy who sees himself as the next Moshe Rabbeinu and thinks that you aren't doing EXACTLY what his grandmother happened to do in Hungary, you are upgefuren

So here we come back to the same point again. We do what Hashem wants because we trust in Him. If we would trust our leaders, we would trust them to make rules that are good for us. Maybe we should be working on our emunas chachamim....

amother

↑ Fuchsia

Fri, Aug 03 2018, 1:10 am

amother wrote:

Judaism survived a good 3000 years before chassidishe rebbes came along.

Micromanaging dress codes is a very very recent innovation. If you like it, fine, no one is stopping you. But please don't claim it's required by the Torah.

amother

↑ Jade

Fri, Aug 03 2018, 1:48 am

First of all I don't see that we were talking here only about dress codes

Second of all I don't see why you consider this a chasidishe thing. Every culture has its dress codes and every community has its dress codes. The fact that you consider chasidishe dress codes extreme is your problem. (Just btw I am not chasidish)

Third of all, putting up barriers so that klal yisrael won't become assimilated is not a new thing at all.

Fourthly, I do see that people here are assuming that our leaders make arbitrary rules. This I take issue with. I have met many gedolim of all sectors and heard many psakim and although sometimes I don't understand why they say what they say, that is part of listening to our gedolim.

No, I don't understand why in Israel black tights are considered modern.
No I don't understand why it is more suitable for me to squash between fifty men on a bus than to drive a car.
No, I don't see why riding a bike is a tzniyus issue

I could go on ad infinitum

But then, my understanding is not the be all and end all in life.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Aug 03 2018, 8:10 am

amother wrote:

It is so interesting to see that most people find rules that they don't understand to be stifling. What about chukim in the Torah? The definition of a chok is a mitzva that we don't understand?

A chok comes from Hashem. I believe in Hashem, therefore I am happy to follow His rules- I understand that I don’t understand and that’s okay. I think most people here are referring to rules that are made up by society, to keep us in line. Particularly rules that are made up by men to keep women in line. Those rules just rankle.