Do you find rules stifling?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:19 am

amother wrote:

I would venture to say that this is the answer to those who ask if chasidim feel stifled. They trust the leaders who made the rules and see that their lifestyle brings bracha so are happy to follow.

For people who don't trust their leaders........... they need reasons for rules

I don't want to start discussing chassidim, or any particular community for that matter, but what happens when the rules change? If a new hanhaga is being introduced, it has to be done in a way that the tzibur can be mekabel. This is a principle that applies across the board.

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

It is so interesting to see that most people find rules that they don't understand to be stifling. What about chukim in the Torah? The definition of a chok is a mitzva that we don't understand?

As far as I can tell, none of the chukim in the Torah are difficult. Not mixing wool and linen, keeping kosher, para adumah, none of these are especially hard to keep.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:40 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

As far as I can tell, none of the chukim in the Torah are difficult. Not mixing wool and linen, keeping kosher, para adumah, none of these are especially hard to keep.

With that logic, you are basically saying it's rules you find hard to do that you don't understand. You don't mind doing things that you don't understand, but if it's hard and inconveniencing than you don't want to do it.

Also, keeping kosher is hard. To tell yourself you can be more lenient cuz you're in the mood for something even if it's not your hechksher or chalav stam, getting coffee at a place you wouldn't usually get, toiveling things, calling up rabbanim, throwing out expensive food that you by mistake used the wrong utensil in, balei teshuvah not eating things they used to love, waiting less time than you're supposed to between meat to milk, so so many things.

Also with shatnez, I know someone that had to wear a terribly downright ugly coat to a big important meeting because she had bought a new one and realized too late it needed to be checked. The coat she wore was like her grandmother's. (She was going to a business conference in middle of no where and it was freezing). I've heard other stories, but don't say there aren't nisyonos in these areas.

gingertop

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:48 am

I find rules stifling and moved away, geographically and religiously, from a very stifling home environment (think BT type parents with all the zeal of the converted and none of the flexibility of confident FFBs).
That said, joke's on me because I now live in Israel, where being even nominally chareidi comes with its own set of heavily enforced rules!
I basically do whatever I can without ruining my children's lives. Keeping basic halacha is an ongoing struggle for me and I'm definitely working on that. Extra stuff are a step too far.

leah233

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:54 am

Rules are a broad term.

The most irritating and stifling rule I can think of that was introduced lately would be the NJ state legislature voting for a five cents fee for the use of plastic bags in grocery stores, which of course their friends on foodstamps don't have to pay, and while they themselves fly around on private jets or at least taking up too much space in first class.

On a societal level there are unspoken social rules that have nothing to do with frumkeit that I find stifling. For example eight years when everyone I knew dressed in black I just couldn't and didn't go along with it. Some well meaning people told me that I look out of place. Others told me that they and their husbands wished they had the courage not to go along with dressed in black style.

As far as frumkeit is concerned there are very few rules my community has that don't make sense for someone looking to be a member of the community.

On the other hand like ALL post WWII frum communities my community is being challenged by the fact the framework was made by a voluntary group of very idealistic , principled people who had inner satisfaction from these rules. They were also being led by people capable of inspiring other to want to follow the rules and conscious of when to make exception etc.

Today that the frum groups no longer consists solely of that demographic it causes problems for some.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:11 am

leah233 wrote:

On a societal level there are unspoken social rules that have nothing to do with frumkeit that I find stifling. For example eight years when everyone I knew dressed in black I just couldn't and didn't go along with it. Some well meaning people told me that I look out of place. Others told me that they and their husbands wished they had the courage not to go along with dressed in black style.

One societal rule I find stifling, and don't adhere to, is the need to wear a wig every time I go out.

I love my wig, but I don't find it comfortable to sit around in one all day, and have to put it on if I want to jump out for a bottle of milk. I also don't want the wear and tear and maintenance of a wig that is worn so much....I feel like I'd constantly be at the stylist if I wore it all day.

I like makeup, but can't say I won't leave the house without it. I like to look put together, but if I'm in a dressed-down mood, I won't push myself - a slinky and a tee is fine.

I think alot of these "rules" are stifling if you don't have the confidence to just do what works for you. If you have the confidence, you know that you can be yourself and you'll be fine. My kids will B"EH in all likelihood find shidduchim with similarly independent-minded families who focus less on externals, like we do - which is just fine for us.

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:25 am

enneamom wrote:

Keeping kosher? Ask any non-Jew if that sounds hard to them or not.

Since non Jews grew up non kosher it would be very difficult for them to switch to kosher. If the question is do frum Jews feel stifled by having to keep kosher the answer is overwhelmingly no. I don't think any of us here right now actually wish we could go to McDonald's for a big mac.

↑ enneamom ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:33 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Exactly! So rules don't generally feel stifling if you grew up with them.

amother

Blonde

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:34 am

I agree with above posters. I dont like the unwritten"rules" of the frum community regarding dressing fancy(can't wear denim and simple tshirt) and wearing sheitels(who wants to look different in a kercheif..). There are just so many unwritten rules in the Frum community that everyone expects everyone else to do regarding everything even though its not in the torah like fancy simchas or extras like a special bar mitzvah celebration when torah says just need to do seudah on that day. or like needing to make vorts which is just extra expenses. All the rules regarding must give chasan...must give kalla...
This is just one area...

Regarding rules/halachos in the torah this is a different category bec they were made by hashem who is our God. I trust Him that even if I feel stifled by some, I know and trust its for the best. I can't say the same for rules made by humans. I feel stifled by a lot of the rules of my kids schools. Like one rule about only healthy snacks, I agree to give my kids healthy but the school limits a lot of snacks and then is a hypocrite bec by a party they let kids being candy. Some teachers also have strict rules about Only getting certain company for supplies...

I also hate the rules imposed on me by my boss. She is a corrupt disgusting person with no heart and any rule she makes is for her personal benefit and make my life miserable.(obviously rules like be on time and don't miss days, no being on the phone... may be stifling but they are necessary and I'm not talking about those rules).

In general, who really likes all rules(I'm not talking about religion). I think everyone at some point will feel stifled by rules that make their life harder and if those ppl feel the rules are not necessary. But, deep down I think we all know that every microcosm needs rules so that there's structure. For example, I have seen some schools where there are no rules regarding behavior and bullies are not disciplined so some kids get bullied...its a problem when there are no rules.

amother

Oak

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:38 am

enneamom wrote:

Exactly! So rules don't generally feel stifling if you grew up with them.

I think that's a very general rule (no pun intended). If you grow up with too many rules, you definitely can feel stifled.

I grew up in a very rules-oriented house - there was a rule for everything and punishment if you messed up on a rule. As such, several of my siblings rejected my parents' level of religiosity (though amazingly, none went totally OTD). They kind of threw out the baby with the bathwater.

I myself am pretty RW in terms of religion, but I have a much more chilled atmosphere in general at home. You don't have to ask my permission to breathe! I try to choose my battles carefully, and say no where I need to, and yes when I can.

I hope my kids feel less stifled.

amother

↑ Jade ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:38 am

PinkFridge wrote:

You are right BUT if the person introducing the rule is someone who you trust 100% to have the good of the tzibur in mind, it is easier to accept.

So we are back to the same point. If we trust our leaders, we will not find their rules stifling. or even if we find them hard, we will understand that even if we don't understand it is worth complying.

It also makes a big difference whether it is a blanket rule or whether there is someone to talk to if there is an issue eg my sons cheder has a no internet policy UNLESS you have discussed it with the rav first (which I have) , likewise women should not park in cars outside the cheder UNLESS discussed with the rav first etc

↑ enneamom

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

I hear that. A lot depends on attitude and how it's given over.

↑ southernbubby

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:42 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

I think the problem with rules is when we set the bar so high that many can't comply with them. From my limited reading, it seems that Sephardim realized that because they had to fit in to Spanish countries, many would assimilate or neglect some mitzvahs so they found ways to include those who were less frum.

Ashkenazic Jews, however, split off into various movements, each of which had their own rules and those who didn't comply were considered rebels or outsiders. OTOH, we don't want people to lower their standards because their neighbors are doing it and OTOH, we don't want to exclude those who are doing their best to minimally comply.

The rules become stifling when it is either comply with rules that make life too difficult or prevent people from marrying, making a living, coping with special needs and illness, etc. I am talking about arbitrary rules such as keeping genders separate when singles need to meet on their own or preventing women from driving when they have special situations or denying people the vital skills they need for parnassah. I am in total sympathy with those who need to break those "rules" since they don't involve breaking with halacha.

I also think that we have to allow each person explore their own path which is why I don't say anything if I don't really approve of what a teenage grandchild is wearing or doing, unless it would be chas v'sholem dangerous. I think that if we push rules on people, a certain percentage will look for ways to rebel. For many, keeping the basic mitzvahs is all they can handle and better that then causing them leave the derech totally.

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:44 am

amother wrote:

After all the recent threads on halacha/minhag being stifling or not, do you find rules in general stifling or is it specifically frumkeit that seems stifling?

or not?

I personally feel that rules give structure. I think that structure is a positive thing. What do you think?

posting anonymously because not really in the mood to be jumped on

Imo, rules that are created as guidelines are helpful and not stifling. Rules that are created to micromanage other people's lives are stifling.

In general, most of the Torah Halachos serve as guidelines and allow for broad interpretations & accommodations. Most of the chumros and societal rules are rigid, inflexible and serve mostly to micromanage.

amother

↑ Seashell ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:50 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Depends on so many factors. For many frum Jews, especially teens, keeping kosher is very stifling if they live way OOT. It's not like in NYC where you have lots of kosher options. If you are a teen in a city with NO kosher cafes, not even one, it can be very stifling.

As for nonJews switching to kosher eating and how stifled they would be. It's not exactly the same thing, but I know many Israelis that have switched to eating vegan in the past year or two. (BTW Israel is the vegan capital of the world.) It doesn't feel stifling to them because they are passionate about it being the right thing to do. Now that I think about it, maybe it's not stifling to them because it's a choice they make every single day, whereas a lot of our 'rules' are imposed on us.

So I guess keeping kosher can potentially be stifling, depending on how easy it is for you to keep kosher (it's not exactly stifling in NYC or Israel), and how passionate you are about it being the right thing to do.

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:51 am

enneamom wrote:

Exactly! So rules don't generally feel stifling if you grew up with them.

Absolutely, to some extent this is true. The people who lived a few hundred years ago didn't feel stifled that they didn't have indoor plumbing and didn't realize what they were missing and didn't feel burdened by their situation. It's a little different today where many people have different chumros but openly see others not living that lifestyle. For example a chassidish woman might feel burdened by the inconvenience of not being allowed to drive. She sees her neighbors driving so she might feel the burden more than someone who lives in an area where a woman driving is considered y'harog v'al yavor.

↑ shoshanim999

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 10:54 am

LovesHashem wrote:

It's not rules I find hard that I don't understand. Sometimes a long shabbos afternoon is hard, but I certainly understand shabbos. As far as kosher being difficult, I suppose everything is relative. I think if you'd ask 1000 people to name the 3 hardest rules they keep to be considered frum, I doubt kashrus would be on anyone's list.

amother

↑ Seashell ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 11:00 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Again, that totally depends where they live. There are a lot of cities out there where it is virtually impossible to get hold of kosher food, and you have to make it all yourself, and order meat from abroad. Nowhere to get a coffee or a pizza or an ice cream. It's very difficult to live like this, especially for the woman who usually gets stuck with the food prep, or for older teens who can't go out to eat anywhere.