Do you find rules stifling?

amother

Jade ↓

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:06 pm

After all the recent threads on halacha/minhag being stifling or not, do you find rules in general stifling or is it specifically frumkeit that seems stifling?

or not?

I personally feel that rules give structure. I think that structure is a positive thing. What do you think?

posting anonymously because not really in the mood to be jumped on

PinkFridge ↓

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:15 pm

There's a chazal to the effect of "Ain lecha ben chorin ela mi she'osek b'Torah uvemitzvos."
Freedom from or freedom to.

As an observant Jew, I appreciate structure. Most people would; the mishna in Avos to pray for the government because without which "ish es rai'ehu chayim bela'u" is about society in general.

We are blessed to be living in countries run on principles that have given us incredible freedom of religion, that can be called malchus shel chessed, especially compared to other stops in our history. But they are predicated on principles that aren't where Torah living's coming from. We do believe that there are other things impacting our freedom to act than where yenem's nose ends. We believe in lives of duty, not rights.

thunderstorm

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:19 pm

When schools try to impose rules on parents as opposed to the students , I find that stifling.
I don't generally find Yiddishkeit stifling. I do find it stifling when I'm interrogated about what I have in my home, or what type of phone or filter I have. I am a capable and responsible adult and don't need schools telling me how to live . I already went to school and followed the rules. Now it's my kids turn.

Mommyg8 ↓

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:25 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

This, 100%.

amother

Denim

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:35 pm

No, I love rules and the structure they provide. This is probably why I'm happy to be frum and follow the rules. That said, rules that severely limited my life, opportunities, etc- those I would find stifling and would probably rebel against such rules.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:41 pm

I think of life as a twisty and turny road up the side of a mountain. There are step drop offs at every turn.

You know where the road is, of course. What if the only edge marker was a few sticks and some string? Would you feel safe?

I consider halacha to be like a steel guard rail. Strong enough to keep you on the derech, but not oppressive enough to stop you from enjoying the view.

Now, if the edge was a 40 foot high brick wall, that would feel dark and confining. I wouldn't like that one bit, and would be looking for any chance to turn off of that road.

The thing is, one person's guard rail is another person's brick wall.

Chayalle ↓

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 2:43 pm

I'm an independent type of person with my own brain, so like thunderstorm wrote, I'd rather be my own police - I don't need anyone following up on me. Still, I do appreciate awareness about the issues out there, so I'm okay with school events about the necessity for filters for my kids, etc...

I don't find the life I am leading stifling, but I think if I couldn't drive it would cramp my style. I guess if I was born to that lifestyle maybe it would be different for me. It's interesting to me, though, that on both sides of my family I come from a Chassidish background, but my grandparents did not choose to follow the Chassidish lifestyle in the post WWII era. They sent their kids to BY schools rather than Chassidish ones, and their sons to non-Chassidish yeshivos.
They said that they did not grow up with the restrictions that were being introduced, both external (my grandfather said hardly anyone wore a shtreimel when he was growing up, and almost everyone was clean-shaven!) and otherwise (my grandmother was from Boro Park's early women drivers!). I guess they were the independent type, too.....they made choices that affected who I am today, and I appreciate that.

amother

Fuchsia ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 1:32 am

Gretchen Rubin's book The Four Tendencies classifies people according to how well they meet inner and outer expectations. One thing she points out is that most people respond well to outer expectations, but that's not true for everyone. Reaching people who are not naturally predisposed to following rules requires a different approach. They may need to be convinced that the rule somehow benefits them, or creates better relationships.

It's no surprise that most posters on a board for religious women are ok with following rules. The question is how to relate to someone who's not a natural rule-following type.

amother

↑ Jade ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 1:47 am

amother wrote:

It's no surprise that most posters on a board for religious women are ok with following rules. The question is how to relate to someone who's not a natural rule-following type.

But they are not! They are ok with following rules that make sense to them! I would not call that being ok with following rules.

amother

Seashell ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 2:05 am

In general, I don't find rules stifling. That's because I don't live in a community with 'rules'.

I mean, I live in a country where there are laws, but I find those useful usually and not stifling (stop at a red light, pay your taxes). And there are halachic 'rules', but those are up to me to follow or not to follow - nobody is checking up on me.

My kids' schools expect nothing from the parents, the rules are only for the kids. If I wanted, I could drive on Shabbat (although most of the parent body is shomer Shabbat, it would not get my kids kicked out. The only thing that could get them kicked out is if the older kids -teens- themselves publicly flaunted halacha or the way the school grasps halacha. In other words, my girls will get kicked out if they wear pants around town, but I can if I want).

The rules I guess I find most stifling are my own kids' expectations of me and the way I should act/dress/behave. These aren't written rules, but they are expectations. I find that at a certain age, kids limit your freedom more than your parents do. When making personal decisions, I often wonder how my kids will feel about it, rather than my parents. It takes a concentrated effort to realize that I am an adult and I get to decide things, especially things that have little effect on them.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 8:29 am

amother wrote:

It is so interesting to see that most people find rules that they don't understand to be stifling. What about chukim in the Torah? The definition of a chok is a mitzva that we don't understand?

Rav Hirsch says that it's important to say yes to your children as often as you can, so they can be mekabel the nos.
When chukim come in the structure of a Torah whose Giver we trust, and in an overall lifestyle that really brings bracha, we can be mekabel the chukim. We also know that just as we will never know Hashem in this world because His Omniscience and Omnipotence are beyond us, that there are good reasons for the chukim.
Man-made rules have to have reasons, though. We can accept that sometimes we might not like the reasons, or we would have designed them differently. (Like healthy school tznius rules: it's not that nail polish is inappropriate for a 16 year old but the school doesn't want to have to check hands, so they say no. I, however, can say yes as long as it comes off before school starts.) But when rules are arbitrary or mean-spirited or fill in the blank, we bristle, understandably.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 8:32 am

amother wrote:

The rules I guess I find most stifling are my own kids' expectations of me and the way I should act/dress/behave. These aren't written rules, but they are expectations. I find that at a certain age, kids limit your freedom more than your parents do. When making personal decisions, I often wonder how my kids will feel about it, rather than my parents. It takes a concentrated effort to realize that I am an adult and I get to decide things, especially things that have little effect on them.

I guess you have to measure what kind of effect things have on them, and realize that the effect is on their level, not your mature "in the grand scheme of things" perspective.
(ETA to correct formatting mistake when snipping. The words of the post, not at the poster ch"v.)

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 8:46 am

I have had to challenge some rules when my kids were in school. For example, when my daughters were in high school, the principal said that if they missed an exam, there would be no chance to make up the missed exam. I said that if that was the case, I would give my daughters Tylenol to bring down a fever long enough to both take the exam as well as long enough to infect the rest of the school, including pregnant staff members and that I didn't care about anyone other than my own kids. Needless to say, that rule was promptly scrapped.

I do see that some rules in frum society need to be challenged because they are damaging to some people such as:

1) Not allowing any job or career training.

2) Shidduchim being done only by protocol, even when some people can't get married that way.

I am sure that I and everyone else here could add to this list of "rules" in frum communities that ought to have an escape clause.

shoshanim999 ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:10 am

thunderstorm wrote:

I would agree that schools shouldn't tell parents how to live their lives. The exception really is unfiltered internet. Kids and especially male teens that have access to unfiltered internet will likely see content that is beyond inappropriate. I think the schools have every right to demand that parents filter their computers and phones. Additionally, most yeshivos have a very non evasive process of implementing their rules about filters. In fact it's so basic that parents can easily manipulate the system and avoid filtering if they don't want to. The yeshiva simply asks parents to sign a form that their computers and phones are filtered and with which filter. I'm sure parents who don't filter just lie and sign that they do.
As far as a yeshiva asking if a family has a television, I don't see what's wrong with that either. The schools I send to don't ask because at least half the school have televisions. If I would send to a more right wing school it would indeed be inappropriate to have a TV and the school would have a right to tell me not to have one.

amother

↑ Jade ↓

Wed, Aug 01 2018, 9:11 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I would venture to say that this is the answer to those who ask if chasidim feel stifled. They trust the leaders who made the rules and see that their lifestyle brings bracha so are happy to follow.

For people who don't trust their leaders........... they need reasons for rules