S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?

princessleah ↓

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 12:32 pm

This whole thread is making me queasy. Pale

1. Taking Challah and lighting candles are not WOMEN'S MITZVOT. They are simply mitzvot that more often than not are done by women. If a man were to bake challah (my stars!) he would be obligated to take challah. A man who lives alone MUST light shabbat candles.
The only true WOMEN'S MITZVAH I can think of is niddah, I.e., dipping in the mikvah and keeping track of cycle

2. A boy enjoying a $30,000 bar mitvah party is not tznius. Singing his praises to Shamayim is not tznius either. I personally am not into these over the top affairs for either gender-- what has this 12/13 year old accomplished to get here? Pretty much just stayed alive for 12 or 13 years. A lot of people do this. The BM to me represents the milestone of now being responsible for mitzvot, and for boys, the responsibility to be an active member of the kehila. It's where the work begins, not ends, and should be celebrated as a religious rite, not an ostentatious birthday party of accomplishment of something.

My BM was a dinner in my house with the girls in my grade and some family and friends, and teachers from school. I had learned Masechet Rosh HaShannah and gave a d'var Torah on it. My father made the siyum and we had a seudat mitzvah. My mother bought/made the food herself. It was lovely, but nothing compared to the bar mitzvahs I went to that year.

amother

↑ Tan ↓

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 2:07 pm

princessleah wrote:

This whole thread is making me queasy. Pale

It was a standard simcha in my circles. Who was singing his praises to Shamayim? What are you talking about. Why do people make things up?

Get over it. It was not anywhere near the top end of simchas I attended. I didn't go into debt. I didn't go close to draining my cash reserves, and all vendors were promptly paid. I could still buy what we needed and was still able to give chessed.

The community came together and was treated to a wonderful night of singing, dancing, food, and fellowship. Not one single person mistook the party for anything more than that. It was not to honor his accomplishments.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:09 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not a Robin Hood. I have no problem with people making any kind of simcha they want, though as I've often said, wealthy people do their children a major tova if they live below their means. Even a little understated may still be well above mine and I'm cool with that.

And I guess I'm heartened that there are communities out there that are so wealthy that a simcha like this can be the norm. At the same time, I'm still uneasy too.

And I've seen albums from these simchas (professional albums). With the same stage production of hair and makeup for the women you'd see at a chasuna. With the ~~chosson~~ bar-mitzvah boy posing for at least a half hour, in the same tired poses that yes, you'd see in a wedding album. I really don't get it. If I would have lived near a lot of extended family, I'm sure we would have done something larger scale than we did. We still wouldn't have done what is an effect a wedding.

↑ princessleah ↓

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

I wasn’t talking about you! I’ve been to plenty of Bar Mitzvahs in my own community where this is done. A whole Shabbat with Friday night dinner, Kiddush, luncheon, Saturday night party. Multiple speeches at each thing with a dvar Torah and talking about the boy, songs about him, photo montage, etc.
a Capella groups hired for Shabbat who walk table to table taking requests etc.
and it’s excessive

amother

↑ Tan

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:32 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The simcha was below our means. It was not done to show off or keep up. It was done to simply have a fun time.

If we would have begged, borrowed, or emptied our bank accounts I would agree with you.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

The simcha was below our means. It was not done to show off or keep up. It was done to simply have a fun time.

If we would have begged, borrowed, or emptied our bank accounts I would agree with you.

The norm for my kids' bar/bas mitzvahs was pretty low-key. In a few of their classes, there were kids from affluent families who did big bashes, and when they went, they enjoyed. It was a trip and there was no pressure or bad feelings that they couldn't have the band/balloon artist/cotton candy and slurpees machines/whatever.

But when it's the norm...well, I guess that means that you live in a pretty homogenous community. A lot of us don't.

↑ Mommyg8

Thu, Apr 26 2018, 8:25 am

I have always understood that women have three special mitzvos - Challah, Neiros, and Nidah. This is a pretty universal opinion, and this is how women have been practicing for centuries.

I just wanted to add something to this discussion - maybe it was said earlier and I didn't see it -

Boys have a lot of responsibilities when they turn 13. Girls, not so much. Boys have to make zman krias shema every day of their lives till 120. They have a chiyuv of learning Torah - and it's corollary, the aveirah of bitul Torah. They have to worry about shemiras aynayim and other related stuff.

Women just don't have even half of these responsibilities. So it does make sense to make a bigger bash for a boy than for a girl - at least that's the way I see it.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Thu, Apr 26 2018, 10:18 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Women just don't have even half of these responsibilities. So it does make sense to make a bigger bash for a boy than for a girl - at least that's the way I see it.

I think your arithmetic is flawed. According to the Teshuvos HaGeonim, there are 30 mitzvos that women are not obligated in. At least 10 of those are only relevant in a time with a Beis Hamikdash, several are not immediately obligatory for a bar mitzvah boy (namely, pru urvu, and the obligations to give a son of a bris and redeem him). Some are only obligatory for kohanim. Redeeming the firstborn of an animal is not obligatory on most of our bar mitzvah bachurim today. Kibud av va'eim is on the list, because married women are not obligated to honor their parents, but a 12 year old unmarried girl is.

According to the Chofetz Chaim, in his Sefer Mitzvos HaKatan, there are 77 mitzvos asei and 194 mitzvos lo sa'asei that apply today out of Eretz Yisroel. Let's say that women are not obligated in 20 mitzvos that are obligatory today. Then they are obligated in 251 out of 271 mitzvos, for a total of 92.6%. This is a lower-bound, since, for example, I didn't remove the obligation to redeem firstborn child or animal from the list.

That is a far cry from "not even half."

↑ goodmorning ↓

Thu, Apr 26 2018, 10:39 am

princessleah wrote:

This whole thread is making me queasy. Pale

Challah and hadlakas neiros are not women's mitzvos, but they have been the domain of the woman for so many generations that they are considered to be in some ways sacred for women.

For example, both men and women are equally obligated in hadlakas ner Shabbos and ner Chanukah (and that one spouse lights and is motzi the other); yet for centuries, it has been the practice that the women light ner Shabbos and men light ner Chanukah.

The notion of these three as "women's mitzvos" is reinforced by a number of sources:
- The mishna in Shabbos that says that the zchus of these mitzvos act as a protection for women during the dangers of childbirth (or chv"sh the opposite).

- The medrash that says that Chana merited her son Shmuel in the zchus of these mitzvos (which have the roshei teivos Chana -- challah, niddah, ner), and the Teshuvas Maimoni that says that all women should daven while they do these mitzvos that they too should merit children who are tzadikim.

- The idea that the simanim that Yaakov gave to Rochel were the halachos of these three mitzvos (from the Da'as Zekeinim of the Ba'alei haTosfos).

- The fact that all three of these mitzvos are mentioned by Chazal as part the atonement for women of the role that Chava played in convincing Adam to sin.

- The way that they correspond to the three nissim of Sarah's and Rivka's tents (challah as corresponding to the bracha in the dough, ner obviously corresponding to the neiros that stayed lit all week, and nidda in the idea that keeping hilchos nidda enables the Shechina to dwell in our marriages and homes -- I.e., anan kashur al ha'ohel).

Miri7

Thu, Apr 26 2018, 11:23 am

We celebrate all of our childrens’ simchas the same. With B’nei mitzvahs, the kid can choose the “level” or type of party they want within bounds.

All of our children are expected to daven shacharit, leyn their parsha and haftorah , and give a dvar torah. For the girls, the davening and torah reading are in a women’s tefillin group convened for that purpose. (We are obviously MO but most girls in our community don’t do all this for Bat mitzvah, they often give a dvar torah and that’s it. DH insists that all his children can learn, daven, and leyn at the same level).

We have kiddush after.

We always have Friday dinner for family and out of town guests.

Each kid can choose (within limits) what “extra” they would like to do. That’s entirely to do with the personality of the child, not the gender. We keep it modest as we don’t like the trend of expensive parties. These are not weddings. So there is very little difference in how bar or bat mitzvahs are celebrated by our family.

Edited to correct autocorrect typos

↑ imasoftov

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 2:37 am

goodmorning wrote:

- The mishna in Shabbos that says that the zchus of these mitzvos act as a protection for women during the dangers of childbirth (or chv"sh the opposite).

I need a word for "this is one of those things you can't get away with when talking to people who have actually read the text you are misquoting". The Mishna contains none of that warm fuzzy stufff about zchus there, just a threat of death. Not "dangers", death.

https://www.sefaria.org.il/Mis.....g2=en

Well maybe one of the commentators on that mishna, I didn't read them all, does say something about zchus. In that case, the mishna talks about death and a commentator talks about zchus, but still, all the mishna says is death.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 7:13 am

imasoftov wrote:

I wasn't actually trying to "get away with anything," seeing as I was offering this mishna as an example (actually, the primary source) of a specific connection between these mitzvos and women. I do agree that I should have been more precise in quoting it.

↑ goodmorning ↓

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 7:25 am

(And I see that in my list, I left out mention of the halachic sources that explicitly say that the mitzvos of challah and ner, while obligatory on both genders, are more specifically focused on women:

e.g. Tur OC 263 אקב"ו להדליק נר של שבת אחד האיש וא' האשה בכ"מ שידליקו בו והנשים מוזהרות בו יותר כדאיתא במדרש מפני שכבתה נרו של עולם פירוש גרמה מיתה לאדם הראשון והרמב"ם ז"ל נתן טעם לדבר מפני שמצויות בבית ועוסקות בצרכי הבית

(and this is upheld l'halacha by the Bach, who says that a husband who wants to light Shabbos candles instead of his wife may not insist that she grant him the right to do so.)

Obviously based on the aforementioned mishna in Shabbos / Yerushalmi about chet Adam.)

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 7:31 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Not at the reception, but later on during the dancing.

Since generally men and women are segregated, especially at weddings, this is one part that is unusual, as previous poster mentioned "keitzad mirakdim" - because there's a real reason (mitzvah).

In all honesty, I think it's much more on display for a girl to give a speech and have people give speeches about her.

Look, if this is not how it's done in your circles, I'm completely fine with it. But this is definitely how it's done in our circles, and that's not changing anytime soon. Nobody I know is really bothered by it (unless they are comparing notes to relatives or friends who DID have a bat mitzvah) - generally if this is the community's norm, nobody realizes that they should be upset.

Personally, I have a long list of things that I would be upset about before this, and this issue doesn't bother me at all (I had a nonexistent bas mitzvah) but that's just me.

I really can’t imagine what could be untznius about a 12 year old giving a dvar Torah at her bat mitzvah. I guess I really don’t understand.

And the kallah certainly gets plenty of attention even at chareidi weddings.

Women and girls exist and are worth celebrating.

↑ princessleah

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 12:46 pm

goodmorning wrote:

This is saying that the Rambam clarified that these mitzvot should be adhered to most carefully by women because they are most typically done by women, who are found in the house and busy with the needs of the house.

Obviously. These have become "women's mitzvot" because women are usually the ones baking, and usually the ones lighting candles (while the husbands go to shul). So of course everyone worried that they should be adhered to carefully, and there are warnings about dying in childbirth etc to emphasize how important it is to have candles lit every Friday night and challah taken.

But these are NOT mitzvot only for women, and not the ONLY mitzvot women become obligated in at the age of 12. They are also obligated in tefilah. (I hold) they are obligated in learning Torah. They are obligated to keep Shabbat. Kashrut, etc etc., ALL the mitzvot the boys are obligated in except mitzvot aseh she ha zman gramah. We have more than 3 mitzvot. Come on.

↑ goodmorning

Fri, Apr 27 2018, 1:18 pm

princessleah wrote:

He gives two separate reasons -- one is the Rambam about them being home and the other is the Yerushalmi that women were given these mitzvos as part of the atonement for Chava. But the point is that, for whatever reasons, they have become women's mitzvos. As I said, the Bach paskens that a husband is not allowed to "take this mitzvah" away from his wife: והנשים מוזהרות יותר וכו' נראה דה"ק דאם האיש אינו רוצה להניח לאשתו להדליק ולברך אלא רוצה להדליק בעצמו ולברך משום דמצוה בו יותר מבשלוחו כדאמר בריש פר' האיש מקדש שאין ביד האיש לדחות את אשתו ממצוה זו אלא כיון דהנשים מוזהרות בו יותר תדליק היא ותברך ולא הוא

That in no way, of course, means that they are the only women's mitzvos. As I posted above, I guesstimate some 250 mitzvos (asei and lo sa'asei) that are incumbent on women today in chul.

Saying that these three are "women's mitzvos" (I.e. they have a greater share in, or greater halachic rights to them, than men) in no way negates the fact that there are other mitzvos that are obligatory on both genders. A bas mitzvah celebration could in fact incorporate any of those -- learning and/or davening and/or chesed and/or Shabbos and/or kashrus. Or it could incorporate challah. The particular advantage of challah doesn't (only?) lie in a delineation of women's mitzvos vs. men's. It lies in the fact that it shows a status change of a girl who turned 12 from being unable to take challah (while she was able to learn/daven/do chessed / keep Shabbos and kashrus) to being a halachic adult who is allowed to. This is roughly analogous to a bar mitzvah boy celebrating his new halachic status by getting an aliya / leining / davening for the amud / leading a mezuman.

At any rate, I really wasn't getting involved in how to create a bas mitzvah celebration. I was just pointing out that the statement "Taking Challah and lighting candles are not WOMEN'S MITZVOT. They are simply mitzvot that more often than not are done by women." is not strictly correct. They are mitzvos that, more than any others, have a particular connection to women.