WO! Now I really believe in R' Nachman - Uman- Rosh Hashana!

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 11:47 am

poelmamosh wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

And did they say Jews should leave EY to daven in Uman Question

And did they say Jews should spend thousands of dollars to do so, instead of supporting Torah or giving it to tzedaka? shock

I would imagine they said it to Jews who lived fairly locally and probably walked to Uman or at best came by horse and cart...

I'm not Breslov, and I take offense to these comments. Who are we to judge another's minhagim, even if they happen to be Chassidish?

I was looking at this minhag in light of the halacha. I gave my opinion that the halachic circumstances in which this minhag originally operated were completely different. I personally doubt that Rabbi Nachman would have told his chassidim to leave EY to go to his kever. I imagine that it would be a wonderful thing for a Jew who lives in Uman to daven at Rabbi Nachman's kever on RH.

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There are plenty of sacrifices we all make, monetary and otherwise that would make someone from without frum society go Confused

I would hope that these sacrifices are to keep halacha, not go against it.

↑ TzenaRena ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 12:09 pm

shalhevet wrote:

The gemorra mentions 3 reasons that leaving EY is permitted, and going to kivrei tzaddikim is not one of them. During the time that the gemorra was written there were kivrei tzaddikim in chutz la'aretz - eg Mordechai and Esther, tanaaim in Bavel etc, so if it would have been permitted/ recommended to leave EY for such a purpose, it would have been mentioned.

The majority of Jews lived in Bavel at that time. But another reason it wouldn't be mentioned if it isn't, is that it's so obvious for the reason at the end of this post.

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Do you have a source for your psak, GR?

Why is that GR's psak? It's a horaah of great tzaddikim!

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Not only that, but I heard that the kvarim of tzaddikim in chutz la'aretz are actually empty and their bodies reach EY under the ground!!

can you provide the source?

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Also, it is well known that all the tefillos from all the kivrei tzaddikim in the world are gathered to Meron to the kever of the Rashbi (Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai) and from there to the Cave of Machpela to the kever of our forefathers and foremothers, and from there straight to Heaven.

in that case it certainly helps to be connected to a tzaddik, who is always connected to RAShBI for your tefilah to ascend with greater merit.

As in the story of the Tanna who compared his own tefillah for a Refuah to that of a servant who only occasionally sees the king, with that of a different Tanna, who is like a servant who is always in the king's palace, and would be answered first.

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

And, of course, to come to 770 which we call "Beis Rabbeinu She'b'Bavel" it is certainly no yeridah to leave E"Y and come there.

Oh, of course. Even according to your shita, could you please explain the kedusha of a house that a tzaddik used to live in? And to leave EY, the King's palace, for such a reason????

We don't consider 770 as a place that a tzaddik used to live. I don't think the breslovers consider Uman as a place R. Nachman used to be.

Leaving Eretz Yisroel is permissible for the purpose of learning Torah. There is no question that spending the YomTov with your Rebbe is in that category.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 12:15 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

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Not only that, but I heard that the kvarim of tzaddikim in chutz la'aretz are actually empty and their bodies reach EY under the ground!!

can you provide the source?

Sorry, no. I think I heard it from Rav Bentzion Mutzafi.

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

And, of course, to come to 770 which we call "Beis Rabbeinu She'b'Bavel" it is certainly no yeridah to leave E"Y and come there.

Oh, of course. Even according to your shita, could you please explain the kedusha of a house that a tzaddik used to live in? And to leave EY, the King's palace, for such a reason????

We don't consider 770 as a place that a tzaddik used to live. [/quote]

Would you please explain that statement????

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I don't think the breslovers consider Uman as a place R. Nachman used to be.

They consider it his kever AFAIK. Of course there is a Jewish idea to daven at kivrei tzaddikim in the zchut of the tzaddik.

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Leaving Eretz Yisroel is permissible for the purpose of learning Torah. There is no question that spending the YomTov with your Rebbe is in that category.

Maybe to learn Torah with your Rebbe. But how can you define davenning at a kever, or certainly visiting the house of a rebbe who was niftar, learning Torah with them?

Seraph ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 2:20 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Keep in mind, Shalhevet, that not all rabanim pasken like your rav. Many rabbanim nowadays hold that there isn't an issur to leave E'y, that that halacha was specifically regarding times of geula, not times of galus. But lets not get into a debate on that here.

Rav nachman obviously didnt find a problem with leaving E'y- yes, he made a shlep into E'y, but then he LEFT!!!! shock

So I don't think he would have discouraged people from leaving E'y to daven at his kever for rosh hashana...

sarahd ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 3:01 pm

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

MiriamNechama, someone mentioned on this site a while back that Uman has the same kedusha as Eretz Yisroel. I wouldn't worry about all the Breslavim leaving E"Y to go there for Rosh Hashana.

I'm so glad you wouldn't worry. <sarcasm> The gemorra mentions 3 reasons that leaving EY is permitted, and going to kivrei tzaddikim is not one of them. During the time that the gemorra was written there were kivrei tzaddikim in chutz la'aretz - eg Mordechai and Esther, tanaaim in Bavel etc, so if it would have been permitted/ recommended to leave EY for such a purpose, it would have been mentioned.

WADR, there must be other heterim for leaving E"Y. R' Steinmann and the Gerrer Rebbe regularly travel to Chutz Laaretz, and it's not in order to learn Torah, find a shidduch or for parnasa reasons. The Belzer Rav travels to Belz to kivrei avos; both the Belzer Rav and the Vizhnitzer Rebbe used to travel to Switzerland in the summer; the Kalever Rebbe still does, as does R' Povarsky. Also not for the gemara's three reasons.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 3:15 pm

sarahd wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

GR wrote:

MiriamNechama, someone mentioned on this site a while back that Uman has the same kedusha as Eretz Yisroel. I wouldn't worry about all the Breslavim leaving E"Y to go there for Rosh Hashana.

WADR, there must be other heterim for leaving E"Y. R' Steinmann and the Gerrer Rebbe regularly travel to Chutz Laaretz, and it's not in order to learn Torah, find a shidduch or for parnasa reasons.

They go to teach Torah and inspire other Jews.

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The Belzer Rav travels to Belz to kivrei avos;

The Belzer Rav recently travelled to Belz to daven at kivrei avos b/c his grandson requested it. He flew straight to the nearest airport, took a bus/car straight to Belz, davenned there for an hour or two and went straight back to EY! He obviously had a reason, but I happen to know about him that he leaves EY very rarely and wanted to be away as little as possible.

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both the Belzer Rav and the Vizhnitzer Rebbe used to travel to Switzerland in the summer; the Kalever Rebbe still does, as does R' Povarsky. Also not for the gemara's three reasons.

No idea about this. But Switzerland makes me think of health reasons.

↑ gryp ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 5:58 pm

Shalhevet, it's time you left halacha to the halacha experts, ie. the Rabbonim each one of us follow.

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shalhevet wrote:

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GR wrote:

And, of course, to come to 770 which we call "Beis Rabbeinu She'b'Bavel" it is certainly no yeridah to leave E"Y and come there.

Oh, of course. Even according to your shita, could you please explain the kedusha of a house that a tzaddik used to live in? And to leave EY, the King's palace, for such a reason????

No, I am politely declining. You'll have to accept it as is or find someone else who doesn't mind explaining a thousand times, given our track record.

Motek ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 8:40 pm

Why leave halacha to the experts when you can deride chasidim instead? And anyway, "everybody knows" that Chasidim don't follow halacha, right?
Rolling Eyes

Some Torah sources:

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Regarding the specific question of leaving the Land of Israel to visit the gravesites of holy Sages and Tzaddikim, the"Pri HaAretz," states that even if a person lives in Eretz Yisrael and his soul longs to prostrate himself on the gravesites of Tzaddikim outside of the Land, this is permitted, as long as he plans to return (See Mishna Berurah, Section 568:10, Shaare T'shuva, 20, there).

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According to the "S'deh Chemed," paying homage to the memory of our holy Sages by visiting their graves is considered an aspect of studying Torah, since our identification with the great rabbis of the past has the power to raise a person in his Torah learning and his worship of G-d. At the same time, there are disagreeing opinions, especially concerning Torah scholars whose study will be hampered by the hardships of traveling, so each case must be judged individually.

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For the mitzvah of kibud av v’eim, honoring one’s parents, it is certainly permitted to leave Israel ... One is also permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael to seek medical care or for health reasons in general.

Additionally, it is permissible to leave Israel to travel to the gravesites of tzaddikim, such as in Uman, in order to pray there (see Shaarei Teshuvah 568:20).

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According to Rav Ovadiah Yosef (Yechave Da’as 5:57) one would also be permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael to teach Torah to others. This issue came up a number of years ago with a now prominent rosh yeshiva who was offered a prestigious post outside of Israel. The gedolim of Eretz Yisrael told him to take the position, but his wife refused to follow him.

Rav Chatzkel Levenstein, zt’l, also took a position outside of Israel in the Mirrer Yeshiva when it was offered to him.

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A fascinating additional heter is found in the Mishnah Berurah (531:14). He writes that one may leave Israel to see a good friend, because this is considered a d’var mitzvah.

↑ Motek ↓

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 8:45 pm

a Breslover source:

R' Avraham Shternhartz (1862-1955), was a rabbi in Ukraine and a unique and unsurpassed figure in the chain of transmission of Breslover teachings from the early generations of the movement to the latter ones.

Reb Avraham Sternhartz writes in his Amaros Tehoros:

"According to what we may understand from Likkutei Moharan II, 67, the holiness of the Beis ha-Mikdash depends upon the tzaddik, whose light shines into it. Therefore, we must mourn the passing of the tzaddik all the more sorrowfully. Concerning this, my grandfather, the Rav of Tcherin, of blessed memory, states in his Zimras ha-Aretz that in these times, after the destruction of the Holy Temple, and especially after the passing of the tzaddikim, the entire holiness of Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim is damaged and concealed.

Although they are aspects of the tzaddik − even the Western Wall, which is an aspect of the Foundation Stone [being a remnant of the Beis ha-Mikdash] − nevertheless, as long as they remain in a state of destruction, their entire holiness is damaged and hidden. This holiness devolves from the paradigm of the 'beginning of the year,' as the verse states: 'The watchful eyes of Hashem are there from the beginning of the year until the end of the year…' (Deuteronomy 11:12). − 'eyes' specifically; for [the 'eyes'] are the tzaddikim."

[Translator: The Rebbe, ad loc., relates the tzaddikim to the "eyes of the congregation" (Numbers 15:24). He also relates the eyes to the Beis ha-Mikdash, which is called "the desire of your eyes" (Ezekiel 24:16). The verse from Deuteronomyconnects Rosh Hashanah and Eretz Yisrael. Thus, the holiness of Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim is contingent on the Rosh Hashanah of the tzaddik.]

That we are still in a state of exile is readily apparent from the words of the Shemoneh Esreh ("Ve-Yerushalaim 'Irkha") and Birkhas ha-Mazon ("U-venei Yerushalayim"), as well as the nusach of "Nachem," which we recite on Tisha be-Av. The holiness of Eretz Yisrael is still hidden and concealed. Therefore, to rectify this, we must go to the tzaddik for Rosh Hashanah, even if we live in Eretz Yisrael.

This is because the tzaddik shines the light of holiness into the Holy Temple, from which the holiness of all Eretz Yisrael emanates, as the Rebbe states. Therefore, those who argue that it is unnecessary or even wrong to leave Eretz Yisraelin order to go to Uman for Rosh Hashanah are in error. The opposite is true. Our love of Eretz Yisrael and yearning for its rebirth mandates that we travel to the tzaddik for Rosh Hashana.

www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcen.....s.pdf -

Mommy3.5

Wed, Aug 15 2007, 9:34 pm

shalhevet wrote:

miriamnechama wrote:

dunno. dh says that rebbe nachman says that he wants everyone to daven by him on rh, I think it started the year of his petira he moved tyo uman and everyone went to him that rh. he said he wantedto be buriedin uman cus of some massacre that happened years back. anyways when he passed away on 18 tishrei the next year everyone went back to daven by in on rh in uman. ok so basicaly it's become a minhag that breslovers do. now it's so easy but during comunism how many people were moser nefesh to go to his kever. I don't remember all the detail but can ask dh.

I had the book through fire and water and it was written there, I don't have it anymore though. I think also rebbe nosson said then that one should daven by rebbe nachman.

And did they say Jews should leave EY to daven in Uman Question

And did they say Jews should spend thousands of dollars to do so, instead of supporting Torah or giving it to tzedaka? shock

I would imagine they said it to Jews who lived fairly locally and probably walked to Uman or at best came by horse and cart...

There are plenty of good reasons to go to Uman if you are a breslover chossid. I do not understand it, and you don't but going to be at a tzaddiks kever for some is very important.

Its not up to you to be the judge of how others spend their money.

↑ catonmylap

Thu, Aug 16 2007, 9:13 am

Now as far as the comments in posts above about placebo, etc. how can anyone write off an exact ROSH HASHANNAH due date, exactly one year to the date of prayers at UMAN, as placebo, coincidence, etc.?![/quote]

I'm a full believer in the power of tefillot!!! Just not in power of Uman.

I'm sure lots of women have received Rosh Hashana due dates after davening very hard on Rosh Hashana. It's a particularly amazing day for tefillot, especially for davening for children... And countless other children are born on Rosh Hashana itself or have a bris on Rosh Hashana.

GR-- I do think some chassidim are more in touch spiritually--and find that inspiring. There's also (in my opinion)something spiritual in going to the mikvah more often than the rest of us as well. Chabad also should be commended for their kiruv work. They are way ahead of the rest of us in that department.