Men Signing Off on How Their Wives Will Dress / School Reqts

PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 11:55 am

So glad someone reported this already.
Is this your school? Are there no other people in your community you can discuss this with and maybe something tachlisdik will come of it? Because nothing, I can guarantee nothing, will from this thread.

I'm going to go back and read the thread. I'm sorry that you're in such a difficult situation and I wish you menucha. Really, I do.

OK, I read the thread. I see that khaki is not a parent (yet still feels compelled to go amother. I'm really liberal about amother use but this is off-putting). I still don't think it belongs here. I assume from the crownheights.com address this is a Lubavitch school. Please discuss it in the Lubavitch forum if that's the case.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Jun 05 2017, 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total

mha3484

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 11:59 am

My sons's school has one long letter for the children's dress code as well as the parents. Both of us had to sign that we would follow it ourselves and the kids. Its also very respectfully worded. I think when both parents sign off, it shows that we as a family feel x, y and z are important.

groovy1224

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:00 pm

DrMom wrote:

What's wrong with leggings? They are basically ultra-thick footless pantyhose.

But whatever. I don't send my kids to schools like this anyway.

I would assume that such a school would insist on the entire lower leg being covered, including the ankle. So wearing leggings and flats would not be considered acceptable.

↑ BetsyTacy

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:05 pm

What about leggings then socks that cover the edge so no flesh is exposed?
I know socks and sneakers aren't high fashion, but they are darned comfortable and tznius.
Do they fall under the same no-no category as denim?

marina ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:39 pm

This is almost as bad as the time my child's chassidishe private school asked me to sign a contract that our family will be honest in our business dealings, discourage bullying, and speak to each other with kindness.

Oh wait, that never happened. nvm my bad.

SixOfWands

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:44 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

I often wear leggings with boots or booties. No flesh showing.

amother

↑ Aubergine ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:48 pm

I think its in very bad taste to critique a school you have no affiliation too.

Raisin ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:56 pm

I have friends who send kids to this school and I am pretty sure they adhere pretty much to these standards in any case. Its possible other mothers don't, I don't know, not living in CH.

I do feel some of these things are pretty standard in Crown Heights/Lubavitch. I wear denim myself and don't think it is untznius, although I do have friends and relatives who don't wear it. My sheital is slightly past my shoulder and I think its fine, although I wouldn't wear a very long sheital. I also wear dark nail polish, on the extremely rare occasions I bother with nail polish.

Last edited by Raisin on Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 12:58 pm

Perhaps I will be accused of naivete, but I've worked with a ton of schools over the years on their registration and enrollment materials, and I honestly doubt if the school gave the whole men's signature issue that much thought.

In fact, I've alerted a number of schools over the years regarding forms and documents that potentially opened them up to lawsuits -- and in every case, they were blissfully ignorant. "Oh, does that make a difference to anyone? We just copied and pasted it from . . ."

My guess is that the school simply feels it's important that everyone in the family know what they're signing up for -- not that the men search their wives' drawers for contraband leggings.

As for the rules themselves, I presume the school knows its parent body and what guidelines they want and/or need.

The specific issue with leggings is that it's a bit of a fad to pair them with skirts that would otherwise be considered inappropriately short. A few years ago, it was those long jersey skirts that were the source of all evil. Next year, it will no doubt be something else.

amother

Amethyst ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:03 pm

Fox wrote:

As for the rules themselves, I presume the school knows its parent body and what guidelines they want and/or need.

Personally, I find the entire concept of setting rules and guidelines for parents very distasteful. Go ahead and set as many rules as you want for the kids, but leave the adults out of it.

↑ debsey ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:42 pm

marina wrote:

That was covered by the term "Orthodox"

amother

Red

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Personally, I find the entire concept of setting rules and guidelines for parents very distasteful. Go ahead and set as many rules as you want for the kids, but leave the adults out of it.

Sadly this doesn't work nowadays. I work in a school and it is almost impossible to enforce rules with students that their parents don't follow at home.
How do you tell a student that they shouldn't text/talk on their phone all day when that's what their parents are doing?
How do you teach a student the beauty and importance of davening when even fathers don't bother with it (I am not picking on mothers here because I find it much harder for a mother to daven when they have little kids)?
How do you tell girls to dress tzniusly when their mothers aren't?

these are the obvious ones, but the list goes on and on...

I am actually super-impressed with this letter and wish my school could do such a thing. Kol hakavod to them for standing up for their values.

If you don't like it, don't send your kids there

↑ debsey ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:56 pm

amother wrote:

Hijacked by me? Its online at http://www.crownheights.info In fact, what you are viewing is an inline link from that site. I didn't even copy it. I read a news item. If you have a problem with its publication, complain to them.

If this were a matter of personal integrity, then the man would not need to sign off as to what color nail polish his wife would wear. Unless, of course, you actually think its directed to both genders, like, the school is fine if the father wears Essie Ballet Slippers, but not if he wears Teal the Show. And that the school demands that he wear a mid-calf skirt. The fact that none of the items indicate that they are for women only strongly suggests that they are all for women only.

Of course, I also don't equate agreeing that my child will attempt to adhere to a certain behavior code to agreeing that my spouse will. I'm my kids' parent; my husband isn't mine.

However, I do find it interesting that you, and most other people here, don't have a problem with your husband agreeing that you won't wear certain colors of nail polish.

I apologize about #1, usually schools don't post documents like that online. I wonder if the posting on Crownheights.info was done with the school's consent? If not, my objection stands to reposting it.

The "personal integrity" isn't tznius. It's living up to a code of conduct that the school has requested. People wouldn't need to sign if some parents wouldn't agree to the code of conduct and the dress code before their kids get in, and then cynically violate it once the child has been accepted, knowing full well that the school is unlikely to kick a child out just because the parents aren't following the rules.

Publishing the dress code and the code of conduct, and having both parents sign is just a way of making people acknowledge that they know what is expected of them.

There's a simple solution for people who object. Vote with your feet......

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 1:59 pm

DrMom wrote:

What's wrong with leggings? They are basically ultra-thick footless pantyhose.

But whatever. I don't send my kids to schools like this anyway.

Some schools do not permit leggings for girls because they are pants, even under skirts.

I don't know what the intention is here, as I am not familiar with this community's culture and standards.

ally

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:16 pm

sequoia wrote:

I know, right?

Leggings are a gateway drug.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:28 pm

debsey wrote:

That was covered by the term "Orthodox"

If only...

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

Personally, I find the entire concept of setting rules and guidelines for parents very distasteful. Go ahead and set as many rules as you want for the kids, but leave the adults out of it.

Imo, herein lies the problem. The school assumes that the adults abide by the rules and buries their heads in the sand to avoid seeing the repercussions. When a school states that the parents can only have kosher flip phones, I can state without equivocation that most parents just buy two phones. They hold on to their smartphones and just buy a kosher phone to present to the administration. Along similar lines, when the tznius rules are very rigid, many parents only follow them when they're in the school vicinity and so on. What do you think the kids are actually taking out of all this?

And please don't repeat that mindless refrain - don't send your kids there. Schools are unabashedly stating now, 'we want our parent body to have a certain look'. I haven't seen that criteria mentioned anywhere in the Torah and since when can you only teach kids if every single person around them is exactly the same, carbon copies of one another. Does Torah only work in one mindset?

The context of the refrain "if you don't like it, don't send your kids there" is really unjust. If a chassidic parent has an issue with the colored shoes or the mid calf length requirement, does that mean she has to now send her kids to a BY style school or another? If a father has an issue with minyan davening, do you think forcing him into a minyan will show the son the beauty of davening? And due to their 'issues" do he and she no longer have the right to educate their kids in a chassidic manner (or manner of their choosing)? Is forcing chumrahs upon people the current Torah education method? Broad and general guidelines are fair, but the rigid control of late is a NEW phenomenon.

Schools should actually teach and shouldn't be worried about controlling the world. These tactics are more of a control and cultlike method than anything else. Instead of fretting so much about the internet and banning every new thing in sight, why don't they teach instead how to actually use some of it in a good way - how to actually do mitzvos with them, how to enhance the yiddishe lives of ourselves and others. And most of all teach how to be a true Torah Yid in a diverse world, - the diverse world Hashem created.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

I think its in very bad taste to critique a school you have no affiliation too.

So sorry you feel compelled to say this under amother.

singleagain

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

Schools should actually teach and shouldn't be worried about controlling the world. These tactics are more of a control and cultlike method than anything else. Instead of fretting so much about the internet and banning every new thing in sight, why don't they teach instead how to actually use some of it in a good way - how to actually do mitzvos with them, how to enhance the yiddishe lives of ourselves and others. And most of all teach how to be a true Torah Yid in a diverse world, - the diverse world Hashem created.

^^^^ THIS 1000000000000%

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 2:39 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

Personally, I find the entire concept of setting rules and guidelines for parents very distasteful. Go ahead and set as many rules as you want for the kids, but leave the adults out of it.

Chinuch is meant for children. We teach them what's right and wrong so they know what to do in adulthood without setting rules for them. Setting rules for adults implies the failure of our chinuch system. Either it failed in the past or is failing now.

Failed in the past: - the parent's education was flawed and we need to set rules for them so they know what to do now.

Failing now: - We are creating new halachas and setting up new versions of Judaism, and obviously the parents weren't taught this so we need to set up rules for them.