Causing Pain With Words--on this Site and in Life

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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mimivan

Sat, Jun 30 2007, 10:41 pm

A couple of threads lately have been discussing Onoas Devarim (causing pain with words)... and I Found this on another frum forum:

Quote:

The prohibition of Onoas Devarim is in Vayikra 25:17. It forbids all forms of causing pain with words.

see Mishna and Talmud Bava Metzia 58b
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 428

Quote:
The Sefer Hachinuch writes that one should not say words that cause pain and shame to another Jew. Included is making another person the subject of a joke or a sharp retort. This form of harmful speech is not necessarily intended to hurt. It is only the careless, thoughtless expression of a person who, if he would think twice, would never have said it. Yet, he did not think, he did not care, and, therefore, he hurt someone's feelings to such a point that he has no idea how deeply and how painfully. This is forbidden speech, thoughtless speech, harmful speech.

Insulting someone with hints and signs are also forbidden. Chazal say, "Causing people pain with words is worse than cheating them financially."

We must be careful not to verbally cause pain to children unless it's necessary for chinuch purposes.

This prohibition does not apply if someone starts up with you by insulting you. The Torah does not require you to remain like a stone and remain silent when someone curses and insults you. The mitzva is to keep far from Onoas Devarim and we should not start up with others by insulting them.

Lately, several posters have been justifiying certain comments saying that the way they were initially addressed warranted a blunt response...but when are sharp responses truly justified and when do they seem to be inspired by a grudge against another poster?

bashinda

Sat, Jun 30 2007, 10:50 pm

I guess we should search our hearts and try honestly to find out which is the case. Thanks for posting that, mimivan! Gut Voch!

chocolate moose ↓

Sat, Jun 30 2007, 11:18 pm

Some ppl are very sensitive.

purplegirl

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 6:06 am

chocolate moose wrote:

Some ppl are very sensitive.

This is a very good point. My question, my challenge: If a speaker is 'average' and the listener is 'extra sensitive' - is the onus of extra consideration on the speaker, or should the listener just chill out and 'get over it'?

Helani

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 7:47 am

Is expressing your opinion worthy hurting anyone, even an "extra sensitive" listener? After all, keeping your mouth shut might be somewhat unpleasant short term, but by hurting somebody's feelings you will be responsible for it after 120 years. And every time your don't say what you really feel like saying or word it more gently than you would otherwise-you're improving your middos.

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 8:02 am

It's really a problem when we're writing on a forum, without personally knowing the people involved. For onas devarim you have transgressed if you could reasonably have thought that the person would be upset, regardless how objectively sensitive they are. For example, telling one person that she is overconfident might not upset her at all (no one can walk over me) whereas someone else might be offended. Even knowing someone's family circumstances is often important, since we can cause ona'as devarim by certain things said to someone childless, divorced, with a problem child etc which would be perfectly fine to say to someone else.

On the other hand there are people on imamother (and in real life) who get annoyed if someone disagrees (or attacks) their opinions. Someone like that just has to come to terms with the fact that if they write here that 4 yr-olds look cutest in blue, it is not a personal attack, or ona'as devarim to say that I think nothing beats pink and I totally disagree with her.

It is also not ona'as devarim to say that your rav (or source) says that the halacha/ minhag/ chumra etc is different from what she wrote. And the same goes for hashkafa.

cdawnr

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:18 am

I think this is an excellent thread, especially as I have felt very put off by certain posts I have read.

It is not someone posting a point of view different than my own, but the tone/choice of words that they use. I studied creative writing in school and I think one of the best things I learned was how to give criticism...of course I too can improve upon this (esp. with my dh!)...but it is always in the back of my mind.

Too me many posts seem to jump at some particular point the responder feels is wrong, but never mentions any good points that might have been stated. More importantly, it seems people say. "You need to do this" or "You shouldn't do that" period, rather than, "In my opinion, I think you shoudl try to, or try not to do ...." or , when it deals with halachic issues, in which there are differing opinoin sby differing ravs to take into consideration, write, "My rabbi says.." or "I was taught..."

People are coming here to have a conversation with people who are in a similar place in life as they are--or who have been in that place--I think posts should be written like one would speak to a fairly new friend. YOu can be honest, but taking extra care with how we say things. With a new friend we are often shy in opinions, which isn;t what a forum is for, and with an old friend we are sometimes blunt with the truth, which isn't fair when one is reading posts because tone and history are not there.

southernbubby ↓

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:25 am

The other issue is that people don't know each other and whereas people who are used to joking with each other could say something like "I see you have rocks in your head today, let me loosen them up", strangers cannot say that.

↑ chocolate moose ↓

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:43 am

purplegirl wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

Some ppl are very sensitive.

Al pi ahavas yisroe, and I've asked a rova baout it, you can be sure the extra sensitive poster isn't going to say things that are hurtful to them . . .but often, when I've complaiend of insensitive posts (to the poster) I've been laughed off.

↑ southernbubby

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:50 am

The truth is that I have never really asked a mashpia about being on here (I doubt she would understand) and my rav is not in love with this site because he is afraid that halachic misinformation could become worldwide within nanoseconds.
Most authorities would probably say that if what is said here bothers you, find another activity. People are often angry at life and while they cannot push around the "real" people in their lives, they can become online bullies.

↑ chocolate moose

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:52 am

Southern Bubby, while I very often have aggrevation here, I like it here too! it's pretty hard just to say No.

greenfire ↓

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 11:59 am

the computer doesn't have emotions and it is hard to hear our tones of sensitivity or lack thereof ... I'm sure we can all be more careful ... but the whole fun of this site is to also be able to converse with how we feel about what the others say ... so ...

creativemommyto3 ↓

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 12:03 pm

True, but being since we are all frum jews , we have to act and write within the guidelines of the Torah. We can't write whatever we think just b/c it's fun. We have to think of halacha, feelings , how it could affect someones shalom bayis etc.

↑ greenfire

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 12:08 pm

I think truth is important ...

↑ creativemommyto3

Sun, Jul 01 2007, 12:13 pm

It is ,but sometimes it should be said by a masphia or Rav, not by one of us who don't always know the boundaries of halacha.

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