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-> Interesting Discussions
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Maya
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 Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:09 pm
| amother wrote: | | I don't think all who educated themselves would stop vaccinating but I do think more anti vaxxers educated themselves than pro vaxxers. It's simple to go with the flow and listen to your doctor. No educating necessary for that. It's not as easy to go against what your doc is telling you to do and it takes someone educating themselves to decide they don't want to vaccinate. That doesn't mean all pro vaxxers don't educate themselves. It's just likely one of those things many don't think twice about. |
Depends what you call an education. Reading scare-mongering mommy blogs, PEACH magazines, and pseudo-medical research does not an education make.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:11 pm
| Maya wrote: | | Depends what you call an education. Reading scare-mongering mommy blogs, PEACH magazines, and pseudo-medical research does not an education make. |
Now now let's not insult anyones education. Isn't that what you dislike about what anti vaxxers tell you? Why assume their education is less valid. Different opinions and ideas on risk taking doesn't equal less educated.
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LittleDucky
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:16 pm
| amother wrote: | | I don't think all who educated themselves would stop vaccinating but I do think more anti vaxxers educated themselves than pro vaxxers. It's simple to go with the flow and listen to your doctor. No educating necessary for that. It's not as easy to go against what your doc is telling you to do and it takes someone educating themselves to decide they don't want to vaccinate. That doesn't mean all pro vaxxers don't educate themselves. It's just likely one of those things many don't think twice about. |
Your opinion. Going against the flow does not mean you are correct.
I happen to be educated and also have many friends and acquaintances who are educated. And we have all decided to vax. Actually most people I know who don't vaccinate can barely read a peer reviewed scientific journal! And definitely don't know how to find one and analyze it critically. They quote studies they haven't read and claim it says things never stated in the article. Like one PP.
Just because we vax doesn't mean we are uneducated.
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LittleDucky
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:19 pm
| amother wrote: | | Now now let's not insult anyones education. Isn't that what you dislike about what anti vaxxers tell you? Why assume their education is less valid. Different opinions and ideas on risk taking doesn't equal less educated. |
Peer reviewed scientific articles in well regarded medical journals count. Stories and emotions don't an education make.
Knowing statistics, the definition of correlations and their limits, and how studies are done and analyzed are crucial.
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Maya
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:21 pm
| amother wrote: | | Now now let's not insult anyones education. Isn't that what you dislike about what anti vaxxers tell you? Why assume their education is less valid. Different opinions and ideas on risk taking doesn't equal less educated. |
Okay, let's see.
Hysterical mommy blogs versus peer reviewed, scientifically sound medical research.
"Opinions" about risk taking versus hard facts.
Hmmm, why am I assuming that their education is less valid? I can't think of a reason /sarcasm/
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:30 pm
Why don't you post a link to the study that u are referring to? Proving that vaccines are safe. Because , yes, when u ar e pumping newborns with foreign dna and known neurotoxins, the onus is on u you to prove it's safe. Saying correlation does not prove a link ( to an injury listed on the package insert!) Is just not enough.
If there is risk there must be choice.
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Maybe
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:32 pm
| Maya wrote: | Okay, let's see.
Hysterical mommy blogs versus peer reviewed, scientifically sound medical research.
"Opinions" about risk taking versus hard facts.
Hmmm, why am I assuming that their education is less valid? I can't think of a reason /sarcasm/ |
Hep B is primarily an STD, NO other country in the world gives it to babies, unless mom is infected or high risk.
Antibodies are expected to last 10 years, no boosters for teens
Can you find scientifically sound medical research to explain that ?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:37 pm
| Maya wrote: | Okay, let's see.
Hysterical mommy blogs versus peer reviewed, scientifically sound medical research.
"Opinions" about risk taking versus hard facts.
Hmmm, why am I assuming that their education is less valid? I can't think of a reason /sarcasm/ |
You're assuming that's where the education was done when you have no clue. And you're assuming all pro vaxxers did much more thorough research.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:50 pm
| Maya wrote: | Okay, let's see.
Hysterical mommy blogs versus peer reviewed, scientifically sound medical research.
"Opinions" about risk taking versus hard facts.
Hmmm, why am I assuming that their education is less valid? I can't think of a reason /sarcasm/ |
following is a list of 1000 peer reviewed studies dated up until 2015. Enjoy reading.
https://drive.google.com/file/.....&pli=1
(thanks pond user)
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cnc
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:45 pm
| amother wrote: | | You're assuming that's where the education was done when you have no clue. And you're assuming all pro vaxxers did much more thorough research. |
I can't speak for all non vaxxers and posters here but in regards to the specific people that I know IRL that don't vax; they all have one thing in common.
They are not educated. They don't even know what a peer reviewed article is. Most of them don't have Internet access. They made their decisions based on handouts like PEACH.
I don't consider this proper research.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:51 pm
| cnc wrote: | I can't speak for all non vaxxers and posters here but in regards to the specific people that I know IRL that don't vax; they all have one thing in common.
They are not educated. They don't even know what a peer reviewed article is. Most of them don't have Internet access. They made their decisions based on handouts like PEACH.
I don't consider this proper research. |
So the basic consensus here is that those who are anti vax because they know someone with a vaccine injury or death are idiots because clearly that is anecdotal but your perception of the education of anti vaxxers is based on the ones you know and that is not just anecdotal evidence for some reason.
Ftr, I have an advanced medical degree and was anti vaxx before PEACH came out. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just had to comment on the educated part. And no, they don't go through the dangers of vaccines in medical school. They talk about the vaccines and maybe even the schedule very briefly. They don't discuss the neurotoxins or vaccine injuries at all.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 2:25 pm
| amother wrote: | So the basic consensus here is that those who are anti vax because they know someone with a vaccine injury or death are idiots because clearly that is anecdotal but your perception of the education of anti vaxxers is based on the ones you know and that is not just anecdotal evidence for some reason.
Ftr, I have an advanced medical degree and was anti vaxx before PEACH came out. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just had to comment on the educated part. And no, they don't go through the dangers of vaccines in medical school. They talk about the vaccines and maybe even the schedule very briefly. They don't discuss the neurotoxins or vaccine injuries at all. |
The people I know IRL that don't vax don't personally know people that were injured by vaccine. More like their grandmother's sisters grandchilds second cousins, next door neighbors 3 cousin that was injured by a vaccine.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 3:41 pm
| Maybe wrote: | Hep B is primarily an STD, NO other country in the world gives it to babies, unless mom is infected or high risk.
Antibodies are expected to last 10 years, no boosters for teens
Can you find scientifically sound medical research to explain that ? |
Wrong. The Hep B vaccine is also given in Israel. That's just one county that I am aware of. Maybe there are others.
Immunity is usually life long.
I do agree that the frum population is at very low risk for Hep B.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 4:02 pm
| amother wrote: | Wrong. The Hep B vaccine is also given in Israel. That's just one county that I am aware of. Maybe there are others.
Immunity is usually life long.
I do agree that the frum population is at very low risk for Hep B. |
Not it's not lifelong. It's believed that immunity is somewhere between 10 and 20 years. I lost immunity after about 13. Had to check my titers due to coming in contact with patients (Healthcare workers are at some risk in case of accidental needles tick but there js prophylaxis if exposed so don't need immunity prior). Year before I was immune but then I needed a booster. Was actually told I'd need to repeat entire series but I checked titers again after one and was immune.
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sourstix
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 4:34 pm
thanks poster that said "peer reviews" that most dont know what it means. now I think its common sense and so most of us can figure that out. I think a lot of the people that dont vax just listen to the what they say on akeres habayis. they dont even know that the person there talking there isnt educated in this area as well. so they just take it as toras moshe misinai. they dont even think that maybe they should ask their doctor who studied this know enough information to help them get educated. if you dont rely on the doctor. then go to reputable sites. not blogs of someone who you would never take advice from or from people you never met.
taking information from the internet doesnt mean its reliable. read websites that have doctor on them. that have a name of someone you can look up. and has a degree. just taking anyones advice can cause so much trouble. it can be someone who is out to hurt you. please be careful where and who you take advice and information from. and make a decision ithat is not just based on one persons experience. when doctors help their patients and give them medications and they know that it has side affects. so they give them knowing that potential side affects are less then the benefit. and the chance of getting hurt is aal ot less then saving them. that is the thing with vax. they have a lot higher chance of giving you or child a healthy life.
the side affects are a lot lower and the risks are a lot less then the potential to save. and that is with so many things when it comes to medicine.
watch the tv series of "untold stories of the er" and see that many things that can save a life can potentially hurt the patient. yet the doctor takes risks bec the people there are trained and they take a risk to try to save lives. even though some of the procedures and medication are likely to kill the person. but bec there is so much that can be done and the chance of saving them is what it is. sometimes very low but the doctors try whateve they can to save a life.
that is the same idea here. we are trying to save as many lives. yes some might not get the full benefit and some will get hurt but the potentioal the percentage is very high and we want to save as many lives as we can. even though someone might get hurt. that is the nature of the beast. there is no perfect world. there is no such thing as not taking a risk. everyone that wakes up takes a risk. just by being alive. or we would all kill ourselves. bec the potential of success is higher. now if your child or relative got a side affect and is hurting them I understand how that scares you. but know that if all of us including that person wouldnt take the shot then the potential for being alive would be very low.
the shots were made to save as many lives as possible. lets not forget that hashem has enabled scientists to come up with the shot and has saved us all from so many deadly diseases that it was ment to save us from. nno we dont have a cure for all diseases. as that is gonna happen when moshiach comes. but we still need to do our hishtadlus. doctors and scientists are human. only hashem can protect us from the inevitable. lets do our hishtadlus.
about 2 yrs ago a child of 18monts died in lakewood from meningitis. this child was not vaccinated. can you imagine what any mother in this situation would do to herself? she had the means to protect her child but didnt. it could be she wasnt well informed. so now we need to educate. and that is what I am doing.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 4:50 pm
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For all of you judging and calling people you don't know uneducated based on one decision they make, I hope that you have graduate degrees yourself. Just based on this thread alone, I'd guess that some of the more anti and neutral posters are educated. And there are definitely some (not all) of the people who posted pro seem somewhat ignorant and lacking in basic grammar and reading comprehension. Just because you know someone who is uneducated who happens not to vax, doesn't mean a thing. I know people who clearly have learning disabilities who vaccinate all their children. I recently saw someone with a learning disability calling someone on social media an idiot for delaying vaccination. I would love for them to compare their academic record with the person who was delaying and to confirm. So you know someone who doesn't vaccinate who isn't educated? Big deal. I know several pro vax people who are not very bright and they are usually the ones calling others stupid. I would like to think that educated and classy people know better than to name call.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:02 pm
| Quote: | | Not it's not lifelong. It's believed that immunity is somewhere between 10 and 20 years. I lost immunity after about 13. Had to check my titers due to coming in contact with patients (Healthcare workers are at some risk in case of accidental needles tick but there js prophylaxis if exposed so don't need immunity prior). Year before I was immune but then I needed a booster. Was actually told I'd need to repeat entire series but I checked titers again after one and was immune. |
From the CDC website:
Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20 years among healthy vaccinated individuals who initiated hepatitis B vaccination >6 months of age. The vaccine confers long-term protection against clinical illness and chronic hepatitis B virus infection. Cellular immunity appears to persist even though antibody levels might become low or decline below detectable levels.
Please note the last sentence in the paragraph.
There has been no booster vaccine recommended because even though levels decline to the point that they are not detectable, they still seem to provide immunity to most. Obviously you were an exception.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:31 pm
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I'm not sure why so many antivaxxers get so worked up about the hep b vaccine. It's transmitted s-xually and through contact with blood. Infants who get it have the most dramatic and terrible outcomes. So why not protect them? Ftr, I have several advanced degrees in the sciences and fully vaccinate my children as does the rest of my educated community.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:45 pm
| amother wrote: | | I know people who clearly have learning disabilities who vaccinate all their children. |
You do know that a learning disability is not a cognitive deficit and has no bearing on IQ, right?
And for that matter, there are plenty of highly UNintelligent people who hold advanced degrees, too, unfortunately.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:54 pm
| amother wrote: | For all of you judging and calling people you don't know uneducated based on one decision they make, I hope that you have graduate degrees yourself. Just based on this thread alone, I'd guess that some of the more anti and neutral posters are educated. And there are definitely some (not all) of the people who posted pro seem somewhat ignorant and lacking in basic grammar and reading comprehension. Just because you know someone who is uneducated who happens not to vax, doesn't mean a thing. I know people who clearly have learning disabilities who vaccinate all their children. I recently saw someone with a learning disability calling someone on social media an idiot for delaying vaccination. I would love for them to compare their academic record with the person who was delaying and to confirm. So you know someone who doesn't vaccinate who isn't educated? Big deal. I know several pro vax people who are not very bright and they are usually the ones calling others stupid. I would like to think that educated and classy people know better than to name call.
(I have a Master's degree. I heard about peach only from imamother. I have never seen the magazine or even read an article from it. I don't even know where I can get ahold of one. Not that any of this should matter.) |
I think it's a mistake to make assumptions about someone's intelligence, comprehension or education level based on their online posting style.
Many people intentionally use poor grammar in online posts, "dumb down" their vocab, and use awkward shorthand when posting, especially when posting anonymously.
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