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Tricking School into Accepting Unvaxxed Kids
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cnc  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 8:20 pm
amother wrote:
I don't think the majority of people that don't vax care to announce it to the world. I personally do not care what medical decisions anybody else makes for themselves or their children. And I most certainly don't care if you decide to drink milk or not. Even though I disagree with you and think children can live without it. It's your choice and if you believe it's good, you are free to do as you please. It should be every persons choice to make for themselves. If everybody left the unvaccinated alone, and stopped bullying the heck out of them, I don't think anybody would have a need to say or announce anything.


Well the people that I know IRL that don't vax most certainly do announce it. They also love to tell vaxxers how uneducated and irresponsible we are. I guess the bullying can go both ways.
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amother
  Ivory  


 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 8:39 pm
amother wrote:
I don't think the majority of people that don't vax care to announce it to the world. I personally do not care what medical decisions anybody else makes for themselves or their children. And I most certainly don't care if you decide to drink milk or not. Even though I disagree with you and think children can live without it. It's your choice and if you believe it's good, you are free to do as you please. It should be every persons choice to make for themselves. If everybody left the unvaccinated alone, and stopped bullying the heck out of them, I don't think anybody would have a need to say or announce anything.


Oh really?

Then why the need for this? If everyone makes their own private decision. Why is it necessary to "educate" the masses?

An anti-vaccine Orthodox glossy called P.E.A.CH. Magazine launched in April in English, with copies distributed in Orthodox neighborhoods in Brooklyn. “We have heard what the pro-vaccine side has to say, and we are decidedly opposed to their largely unfounded claims,” an introduction on the issue’s second page reads.
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sourstix  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 9:22 pm
I confess I didnt read the whole thread. but cant we just educate each other? try to understand each other? by being hostile we never accomplish anything. I do think that the people that dont want to vax will educate themselves in the way they see fit. its a new phenomenon to not trust your doctor. it always was that we relied on medical professionals what their opinion is. today its a technological world and people have access to google. and what they dont realize is that people post on google whatever they want. and you can get the opinion of some person sitting in india or in south africa or wherever. in real life you would never take this persons opinion.

people dont consider this. they read it and think its set in stone. what they dont realize is that doctors while they went to school and while they are humand and limited. are not malachim. they do the best they can. and dont forget hashem runs the world. taking a vax that has so little risk and potential benefit is so much higher. is something very hard for them to hear. they themselves all got shots. but they are making a very serious decision for their kids which the kid might resent later.

they are putting so many other people at risk. including the young old and unborn and immunosupressed. like a child of mine. when someone tells me their child got asthma from vax, it stumps me to try to understand the relationship between the two. how can you this? get yourself informed and go on the cdc website and look for thier side affects. dont just go by your imagination. dont just go by what people tell you. or your cousin or aunt or friend. they dont know what the cdc knows. they know thier own experiences. you need a national statistic. and that you dont get from talking to friends or even us on imamother you get that from going to the right website and talking to professionals.
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  sourstix  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 9:26 pm
I am just gonna add one more point. that there was a doctor in england dont remember his name. that said at a certain point that vax causes autism. he already retracted from that comment. which means that there is no evidence that it causes autism.
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amother
  Magenta  


 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 9:55 pm
suremom wrote:
of the 100-150 people who died (over half adults) most were immunocompromised. how many injuries (including death) are there for this vaccine per year? note that this vaccine is mostly given to children. so for the 50-75 kids who died how many will die or be injured for life from the vaccine? according to me research it was not an worthwhile exchange.


This is not correct.

The risk of serious complications from chickenpox is 1 in 400.

Serious complications (aside from death), from chickenpox include: stroke, meningitis, encephalitis, infection from flesh eating bacteria, septic shock.

But the risk of even minor complications (such as a rash or diarrhea) from the vaccine is just 1 in 2,000.

MOST of these serious complications from chickenpox occurred in previously healthy individuals (see the cdc website), resulting in 11,000 hospitalizations per year BEFORE the vaccine was introduced.

And, not only are there fewer complications from the vaccine than from chickenpox, the vaccine ALSO provides protection against shingles, later on.
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  jkl  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 10:19 pm
amother wrote:
This is not correct.

The risk of serious complications from chickenpox is 1 in 400.

Serious complications (aside from death), from chickenpox include: stroke, meningitis, encephalitis, infection from flesh eating bacteria, septic shock.

But the risk of even minor complications (such as a rash or diarrhea) from the vaccine is just 1 in 2,000.

MOST of these serious complications from chickenpox occurred in previously healthy individuals (see the cdc website), resulting in 11,000 hospitalizations per year BEFORE the vaccine was introduced.

And, not only are there fewer complications from the vaccine than from chickenpox, the vaccine ALSO provides protection against shingles, later on.


Please post where you get the statistics as many of them are inaccurate. That's one field that's so easily manipulated. Why don't you check out the statistics from the national vaccine info center - here's the link: http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-a......aspx

I'll highlight some points here:

1 - As of September 1, 2015, there had been 122 claims filed in the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) for injuries and deaths following chickenpox or varicella vaccination, including 8 deaths and 114 serious injuries.

2 - Using the MedAlerts search engine, as of September 30, 2015 there had been 3,358 serious adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in connection with chickenpox and varicella-containing vaccines since 1990. Over half of those serious chickenpox vaccine-related adverse events occurring in children six years old and under. Of these chickenpox-vaccine related adverse event reports to VAERS, 161 were deaths, with over 60% of the deaths occurring in children under six years of age.

3 - Chickenpox vaccine effectiveness is reported to be 44 percent for any form of the disease and 86 percent for moderate to severe disease;

4 - Mass use of chickenpox vaccine by children in the U.S. has removed natural boosting of immunity in the population, which was protective against shingles, and now adults are experiencing a shingles epidemic.

5 - Reported complications from chickenpox vaccine include shock, seizures, brain inflammation (encephalitis), thrombocytopenia (blood disorder), Guillian Barre syndrome, death and infection with vaccine strain chickenpox or transmission of vaccine strain chickenpox to others.
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  jkl  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 10:35 pm
More info: http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-a......aspx

The chicken pox vaccine does have its benefits for a select group of society, most immunocompromised or those who have contracted the disease as a child. Forcing it upon society, doesn't lessen any risk or injury factors, it actually creates more. My primary intention here is to point out that this vaccine (and other similar ones) should be decided on a case to case basis by the parent and doctor and not forced upon the masses.

There are many recent articles discussing the controversy of the chicken pox vaccine, claiming that it does more harm than good. Only time will prove which side is right. As long as this issue isn't decided and both sides push their scare tactics (death rates! injury rates!, etc.), why shouldn't it be the parent who decides which route to select?
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Maybe  




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 11:11 pm
sourstix wrote:
I am just gonna add one more point. that there was a doctor in england dont remember his name. that said at a certain point that vax causes autism. he already retracted from that comment. which means that there is no evidence that it causes autism.


You mean Dr Andrew Wakefield this is his latest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FumTh_IaKgA

http://vaxxedthemovie.com/stream/

We report you decide
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amother
  Magenta  


 

Post Tue, Aug 30 2016, 11:43 pm
jkl wrote:
Please post where you get the statistics as many of them are inaccurate. That's one field that's so easily manipulated. Why don't you check out the statistics from the national vaccine info center - here's the link: http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-a......aspx

I'll highlight some points here:

1 - As of September 1, 2015, there had been 122 claims filed in the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) for injuries and deaths following chickenpox or varicella vaccination, including 8 deaths and 114 serious injuries.

2 - Using the MedAlerts search engine, as of September 30, 2015 there had been 3,358 serious adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in connection with chickenpox and varicella-containing vaccines since 1990. Over half of those serious chickenpox vaccine-related adverse events occurring in children six years old and under. Of these chickenpox-vaccine related adverse event reports to VAERS, 161 were deaths, with over 60% of the deaths occurring in children under six years of age.

3 - Chickenpox vaccine effectiveness is reported to be 44 percent for any form of the disease and 86 percent for moderate to severe disease;

4 - Mass use of chickenpox vaccine by children in the U.S. has removed natural boosting of immunity in the population, which was protective against shingles, and now adults are experiencing a shingles epidemic.

5 - Reported complications from chickenpox vaccine include shock, seizures, brain inflammation (encephalitis), thrombocytopenia (blood disorder), Guillian Barre syndrome, death and infection with vaccine strain chickenpox or transmission of vaccine strain chickenpox to others.


First, your source is from an anti-vaccine website, so not exactly objective, but let's put that aside for now.

Your points 1, 2 and 5 all come from self-reported injuries. This is essentially "anecdotal" evidence, which is not scientific. Anyone can report anything, using any language they want to VAERS. There is no independent review, and no conclusions can be drawn regarding causation or correlation. This cannot be compared with epidemiological studies.

Re your 3rd point. Effectiveness increases to over 80% with a booster shot given.

Re #4. This is false. Adults, who had chickenpox as kids, and are then exposed to chickenpox, only receive immunity to shingles for 2 years, not 20, as was originally hypothesized. Then again, if we removed chickenpox from the population by giving all children the vaccine, adults would not be at risk for developing shingles in the first place. Since one can only develop shingles if they had chickenpox.
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  jkl  




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:01 am
amother wrote:
First, your source is from an anti-vaccine website, so not exactly objective, but let's put that aside for now.

Your points 1, 2 and 5 all come from self-reported injuries. This is essentially "anecdotal" evidence, which is not scientific. Anyone can report anything, using any language they want to VAERS. There is no independent review, and no conclusions can be drawn regarding causation or correlation. This cannot be compared with epidemiological studies.

Re your 3rd point. Effectiveness increases to over 80% with a booster shot given.

Re #4. This is false. Adults, who had chickenpox as kids, and are then exposed to chickenpox, only receive immunity to shingles for 2 years, not 20, as was originally hypothesized. Then again, if we removed chickenpox from the population by giving all children the vaccine, adults would not be at risk for developing shingles in the first place. Since one can only develop shingles if they had chickenpox.


___________

I baited you and you responded - I apologize in advance. You've proven my point exactly. In your previous point, you just listed statistics without attributing it to any source. So I went and just grabbed any statistics I was very quickly able to lay my hands on. Do you see how quickly we can spout find 'evidence' of our own views without doing proper research on a particular matter? And even then, the statistics may be skewed due to many outlying factors. There is no clear evidence YET of the benefits of the chicken pox vaccine, nor of the reverse. The debate is ongoing in the medical field and as long as conclusive results haven't been reached, why not lay down the facts to the parents, then let them parents decide in which manner to proceed?

As for the shingles debate - that's a current hot topic in the field. There isn't any proof either way yet - and they've been unable to answer why there is a significant increase in shingles in the young adult population. Before the vaccine, shingles was generally limited to the elder population, but now its numbers have risen sharply in the younger adults. Is it related to the vaccine or other factors? They don't have an answer yet, but it's mind-boggling how everyone else does.

(And I'll definitely agree that anti vaccine sites aren't objective, but neither are pro-vaccine sites. Proper academic research info is currently a much better option for objectiveness.)
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amother
  Magenta  


 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:45 am
jkl wrote:
___________

I baited you and you responded - I apologize in advance. You've proven my point exactly. In your previous point, you just listed statistics without attributing it to any source. So I went and just grabbed any statistics I was very quickly able to lay my hands on. Do you see how quickly we can spout find 'evidence' of our own views without doing proper research on a particular matter? And even then, the statistics may be skewed due to many outlying factors. There is no clear evidence YET of the benefits of the chicken pox vaccine, nor of the reverse. The debate is ongoing in the medical field and as long as conclusive results haven't been reached, why not lay down the facts to the parents, then let them parents decide in which manner to proceed?

As for the shingles debate - that's a current hot topic in the field. There isn't any proof either way yet - and they've been unable to answer why there is a significant increase in shingles in the young adult population. Before the vaccine, shingles was generally limited to the elder population, but now its numbers have risen sharply in the younger adults. Is it related to the vaccine or other factors? They don't have an answer yet, but it's mind-boggling how everyone else does.

(And I'll definitely agree that anti vaccine sites aren't objective, but neither are pro-vaccine sites. Proper academic research info is currently a much better option for objectiveness.)


The stats I listed were from the cdc. Pretty sure I included that cite, but it bears repeating: 11,000 hospitalizations due to serious complications from chickenpox, and 150 deaths per year, every year since 1995, have been prevented.

Thanks to the chickenpox vaccine.

In addition to the cdc, there are many meta analyses that mine data from thousands of other studies, which all indicate the real lack of serious harmful side effects from the vaccine, and the high benefit.

As for shingles rates temporarily rising, that's in adults who had chickenpox but did not have the vaccine as kids (because it wasn't around then). Either way, the chickenpox vaccine does provide immunity against developing shingles later on.
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  Maya  




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:14 am
cnc wrote:
Well the people that I know IRL that don't vax most certainly do announce it. They also love to tell vaxxers how uneducated and irresponsible we are. I guess the bullying can go both ways.

This. Being called uneducated and ignorant is my favorite part. Because according to them, anyone who "educated" themselves stops vaccinating, and as such, if you're still vaxxing, you're still uneducated.
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amother
  Magenta  


 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:16 am
Maya wrote:
This. Being called uneducated and ignorant is my favorite part. Because according to them, anyone who "educated" themselves stops vaccinating, and as such, if you're still vaxxing, you're still uneducated.


Right.
Or they say, "Parents should have the facts."

Because obviously, scientific replicable studies reviewing millions of vaccinated people over the past 30 years and finding that vaccines are overall safe and effective, are not "facts".
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amother
  Magenta  


 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:40 am
pond user wrote:
To all the chickenpox posters:

The CDC only decided chickenpox was a dangerous disease because they have a vaccine which they are profiting hugely from. How else would it explain that very few countries are using this vaccine?


Not sure how the cdc profits, but one can actually argue that vaccines are detrimental to pharmaceutical companies.

They'd make far more money from treating unvaccinated people who get sick and end up hospitalized.
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amother
  Papaya  


 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:52 am
jkl wrote:
___________

I baited you and you responded - I apologize in advance. You've proven my point exactly. In your previous point, you just listed statistics without attributing it to any source. So I went and just grabbed any statistics I was very quickly able to lay my hands on. Do you see how quickly we can spout find 'evidence' of our own views without doing proper research on a particular matter? And even then, the statistics may be skewed due to many outlying factors. There is no clear evidence YET of the benefits of the chicken pox vaccine, nor of the reverse. The debate is ongoing in the medical field and as long as conclusive results haven't been reached, why not lay down the facts to the parents, then let them parents decide in which manner to proceed?

As for the shingles debate - that's a current hot topic in the field. There isn't any proof either way yet - and they've been unable to answer why there is a significant increase in shingles in the young adult population. Before the vaccine, shingles was generally limited to the elder population, but now its numbers have risen sharply in the younger adults. Is it related to the vaccine or other factors? They don't have an answer yet, but it's mind-boggling how everyone else does.

(And I'll definitely agree that anti vaccine sites aren't objective, but neither are pro-vaccine sites. Proper academic research info is currently a much better option for objectiveness.)


Adults now would not have had the varicella vaccine, so not sure why you're attributing their shingles to the vaccine.
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  jkl  




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 10:32 am
amother wrote:
The stats I listed were from the cdc. Pretty sure I included that cite, but it bears repeating: 11,000 hospitalizations due to serious complications from chickenpox, and 150 deaths per year, every year since 1995, have been prevented.

Thanks to the chickenpox vaccine.

In addition to the cdc, there are many meta analyses that mine data from thousands of other studies, which all indicate the real lack of serious harmful side effects from the vaccine, and the high benefit.

As for shingles rates temporarily rising, that's in adults who had chickenpox but did not have the vaccine as kids (because it wasn't around then). Either way, the chickenpox vaccine does provide immunity against developing shingles later on.


The cdc is not exactly 100% objective either. While their statistics on the benefits for the vaccinations are reliable, they will bury the statistics for the reactions and adverse effects. In order for their recommendations to be largely accepted, they have to go about it in this way with a largely uneducated population. If an uneducated adult would read the full disclosures on any of these vaccines, he or she would run for the hills. You need some medical knowledge to be able to balance the benefits and the risks.

I am 100% for vaccinations. It is a critical component of our health. My issue with the vaccines is lumping them all together as mandatory and crucial. All medical personnel will agree that the benefits of the polio and MMR vaccines outweigh the risks by far. But you won't find the same for the chicken pox and pneumococcal (for infants) vaccines. With equal statistics being reported for both the pros and cons of it and with an undecided medical community, I don't think they should be handled in the same manner. Let the vaccines for the deadly and catastrophic diseases be mandatory and let the others be optional.

As for shingles debates, there are many other factors to consider without a direct causage linkage. One thing currently being considered is those who had chicken pox before the rollout of the vaccine are being exposed to the virus less. The result is that their immune response to the virus decreases a bit over time, which results in more cases of shingles later in life. They're investigating other correlating factors as well. As of now, the medical community is still saying "We don't know", so I'm not sure exactly from where you take your steadfast stance on this.
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  jkl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 10:38 am
Taking a moment to vent about medical discussions:

Taking steadfast stances on unresolved medical issues (for those outside of the medical community) and publicizing it, can be quite harmful. If you have a way with words, you may attract many followers and maintain the possibility of leading people astray. We are all entitled to our opinions and we are all entitled to state them. But if you do state them, please state them as such and not as declarative statements of certainty.

In addition, if you do include statistics, please include statistics of both sides of the debate. Persuading people towards one side of a debate without full disclosure of the other is an ethical issue.
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  suremom  




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:51 pm
dbl post

Last edited by suremom on Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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  suremom  




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 12:52 pm
sourstix wrote:
I am just gonna add one more point. that there was a doctor in england dont remember his name. that said at a certain point that vax causes autism. he already retracted from that comment. which means that there is no evidence that it causes autism.

your post comes across as very ignorant. we are not asking to be educated, but please, dont spread lies. following is a response amother wrote to a poster who posted similar upthread.

amother wrote:
1. You don’t even know that doctors name.

2. He never apologized.

3. You don’t even know what he claimed. ‘all those diseases’ they (10 scientist) found a link between gastrointestinal conditions and the mmr vaccine. A lot of kids with autism have gastrointestinal issues. When they corrected/treated those issues the kids autism became better. They then suggested that ‘further research is necessary’

4. The follow up study the CDC did in 2004 to debunk the one written in the lancet paper which we all rely on that there is no correlation bet. Mmr and autism has been falsified as per CDC whistleblower Dr. William Thompson.
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amother
  Coffee  


 

Post Wed, Aug 31 2016, 2:59 pm
Maya wrote:
This. Being called uneducated and ignorant is my favorite part. Because according to them, anyone who "educated" themselves stops vaccinating, and as such, if you're still vaxxing, you're still uneducated.

I don't think all who educated themselves would stop vaccinating but I do think more anti vaxxers educated themselves than pro vaxxers. It's simple to go with the flow and listen to your doctor. No educating necessary for that. It's not as easy to go against what your doc is telling you to do and it takes someone educating themselves to decide they don't want to vaccinate. That doesn't mean all pro vaxxers don't educate themselves. It's just likely one of those things many don't think twice about.
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