Chumros vs Halachos

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:57 am

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Because according to chassidus, you don't need to spend the whole day learning to be close to Hashem.

Chassidim hold by the concept of Bittul Torah. Obviously there are other things you can do to connect to Hashem, but Torah learning connects you to Hashem in a unique way, as explained in Tanya.

Raisin

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:58 am

Shalhevet, what apartheid system in Crown Heights are you talking about?

FYI, about 40 years ago there were all sorts of Jews living in CH. Then blacks started moving in, and Jews left. The only ones who didn't were the lubavitchers, and a very few others, who stayed because the Rebbe told them to.

So now only Lubavitchers live in CH.

breslov, that is very interesting to hear that satmerers follow the Shulchan Aruch Harav.

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:02 am

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No, I'm sorry. I don't. Can you please enlighten me?

I will IYh look it up for accuracy and post. Unless TzenaRena beats me to it. Wink

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Btw, I have a way of mixing up my words.

Do you mind proofreading your posts for accuracy before clicking submit? Just for integrity's sake.
Do you realize you posted:

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Back then the chassidim were the simple folk, who, granted, just may not have known all the halachos...

And then later:

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(And there were many many more that weren't simple folk.)

↑ Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:04 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

Btw, I have a way of mixing up my words.

Do you mind proofreading your posts for accuracy before clicking submit? Just for integrity's sake.
Do you realize you posted:

Quote:

Back then the chassidim were the simple folk, who, granted, just may not have known all the halachos...

And then later:

Quote:

(And there were many many more that weren't simple folk.)

I should proofread. My problem is that my brain works so fast, that I don't realize that I'm typing something different than what I mean. And I assume everyone is able to read my mind and knows what exactly I meant when I posted (even though I wrote something else...)

↑ Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:05 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

Because according to chassidus, you don't need to spend the whole day learning to be close to Hashem.

Chassidim hold by the concept of Bittul Torah. Obviously there are other things you can do to connect to Hashem, but Torah learning connects you to Hashem in a unique way, as explained in Tanya.

Not all chassidim hold by tanya. As someone mentioned elsewhere, Chabad is a Chochma Bina Daas chassidus- with more of an emphasis on the intelectual side, whereas the other chassiduses are Chagas, with more of an emphasis on emotion.

↑ shalhevet

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:08 am

Raisin wrote:

I also have never heard of one, just GR thought it was really weird that Chassidim and Litvish should be learning together, so I just assumed that in CH that could never happen. Well, thanks for the information about CH and Lub which I didn't know.

Helani

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:51 am

I was just reading the biography of Rav Meir Shapiro (daf-yomi), and one of the things he did was try to establish a new school system for boys who would have to go out to work. It seems that the regular cheder curriculum involved not learning halachos until after bar-mitzvah age and by that time majority of boys had to go to work. He wanted to have a system where working boys would learn halachos alongside mishnayos and gemorah from an early age, where boys who would go into learning would follow a more traditional curriculum. So, I would say it sounds like an average person was not well versed in halacha at all.

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 8:57 am

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just GR thought it was really weird that Chassidim and Litvish should be learning together,

try learning with a Lubavitcher Chassid, you'll think it's weird too.

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Not all chassidim hold by tanya

breslov, did you check that for accuracy? Wink

↑ Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 9:04 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

just GR thought it was really weird that Chassidim and Litvish should be learning together,

try learning with a Lubavitcher Chassid, you'll think it's weird too.

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Not all chassidim hold by tanya

breslov, did you check that for accuracy? Wink

I know breslov doesn't hold by tanya. So that makes at least one chassidus that doesn't hold by tanya.

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 9:51 am

If it doesn't contradict Chabad hashkafa in any way, then I go by it. But I wouldn't say I don't hold of it, because that makes it sound like it's invalid.

I don't know why you would bring this discussion into the simple fact I brought up that Tanya talks about. The fact that learning Torah connects the Chab"ad of a person with the Chab"ad of Hashem, in a unique way that is not present when doing Mitzvos- that is that your mind and the Torah that you learn encompass each other simultaneously. It's a fact, not something anyone does or doesn't go by.

↑ Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, May 20 2007, 2:24 pm

breslov tanya is not something to be "held by" or not held by.
its not a psak in halacha that some hold by or not.
as GR said its a teaching that helps connect us with G-d, teaches us the right way to daven and live.
you either learn it or you don't but its not a matter of holding or not.

↑ Atali ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 5:56 pm

Well, I was only off the computer for about 12 hours and already have so much to reply to.

About Learning Tanya- I have a close friend who is Spinka and learns Tanya, I know many other people from many (Chagas) chassidus groups learn Tanya as well. If you say that Breslov doesn't, I believe you, but many other Chassidishe groups learn Tanya regularly (along with their own Chassidus, of course0

About Likutei Mohoran- My husband told me that the Rebbe once quoted Likutei Mohoran in a sicha, which shows that the Rebbe approved of learning it. The problem is that first I would want to finish learning all the Chabad Chassidus, which would take me several lifetimes. Smile

About Lubavitchers learning with other groups- My husband learns every day with someone from another chassidus (I'm not sure which one) first they learn gemara and then they learn Chassidus Chabad (at the other chossid's request). I also see no problem with learning gemara or SA with someone Litvish, it's the same Gemara with the same Rashi and same Tosafos.

To Shalhevet In case you are wondering why many chossidim daven late, it is not because they don't keep SA. Rather it is because we hold that the time spent preparing for davening, I.e. going to the mikvah and learning chassidus, is counted as the beginning of davening.

↑ gryp

Sun, May 20 2007, 6:15 pm

Quote:

To Shalhevet In case you are wondering why many chossidim daven late, it is not because they don't keep SA. Rather it is because we hold that the time spent preparing for davening, I.e. going to the mikvah and learning chassidus, is counted as the beginning of davening.

But Atali, that's not the point. The point is that someone off-quoted something from the Chofetz-Chaim how many years ago... and Shalhevet jumps in to agree with it and her "proof" is because someone recently told her something similar.
Personally, I don't need Amei Ha'aretz examining my behavior to see if it correlates with the Shulchan Aruch.

↑ Atali

Sun, May 20 2007, 6:37 pm

Can we all agree on the following points?:

1. All frum yidden learn and try to follow SA, either following the Shulchan Aruch haRav, the Mishna Brura, or the Bais Yosef depending on their minhag.

2. There is much that one can gain from learning Tanya, Likutei Mohoran, or any other chassidus.

3. Different people from different groups learn different sefarim with different people, but in all groups people learn gemara, Shulchan Aruch, modern day poskim, and chassidus and/or mussar.

(does this sound PC enough Smile

)

Can I suggest that we go back to discussing the original topic of chumros vs halachos. That is what Breslov origionally wanted to discuss, and I find it interesting as well. I think that we should not totally dismiss Breslov's whole post because of one misquoted and not well though out comment that she put in the middle.

Breslov- Can you find out if my thought that R' Nachman was referring to prishus is correct? It seems logical given that he was saying that keeping these "chumros" detracts from simcha and the practice of prishus was probably still common in his time given that he lived only two generations after the Ba'al Shem Tov.

Therefore, perhaps things would be different in our times when people have much more of a tendency to be meikl than machmir. However, the (Lubavitcher) Rebbe did say that in our times avodas Hashem should be done more through simcha with less focus on mussar, etc. Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Atali