Chumros vs Halachos

Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 4:11 am

Rav Nachman of Breslov said that one shouldn't let their brains get in the way, and end up being too machmir.

ולא נתנה תורה למלאכי השרת, ועל אלו המדקדקים ומחמירים בחומרות יתירות, עליהם נאמר "וחי בהם" "ולא שימותו בהם" כי אין להם שום חיות כלל, ותמיד הם במרה שחרה, מחמת שנדמה להם שאינם יוצאים ידי חובתם בהמצוות שעושין ואין להם שום חיות משום מצוה מחמת הדקדוקחם והמרה שחורות שלהם
"And the Torah was not given to angels. And about those who are medakdek and machmir on extra chumros, about them it says "And you shall live by them" (Vayikra) "And you shouldn't die from them" (Yoma), because they have no Chiyus (I'll translate that word as life) at all, and they're always in a bitter darkness, because it appears to them that they aren't fulfilling their obligations on the mitzvos that they aredoing, and they dont have any life because of the chumros and bitter darkness of theirs. " -Likutei Mohoran, Chelek Beis, Torah Mem Daled.

So Rav Nachman was against people taking on extra chumros, however, he suggested that they take one specific mitzva, and be extra machmir on that, and just do the other mitzvos with a normal amount of care. (Sichos Haran 235)

However, the chofetz chaim said about Breslov that it is one of the few chassiduses that actually keeps the shulchan aruch.

So with all that said, it got me thinking. Keep Shulchan Aruch. Don't be too machmir. Choose one mitzva to be extra machmir on.

Whats the difference between a chumra and halacha? If I lived strictly according to the shulchan aruch with everything, many people would say I'm being extra machmir. There are always two ways to pasken- more meikil and more machmir. Does keeping the shulchan aruch mean going according to the kuladik opinion, and being machmir going according to the more chumradik opinion?
Or is being machmir mean being strict about something that isn't halacha per se?
One person sees one thing as being straight out halacha, whereas the second person just sees it as a chumra.
Who decides when something is a chumra and one thing is pashut halacha?

What are your thoughts?

Atali ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 4:48 am

First of all, do you have a source for that comment from the Chofetz Chaim. Given the tremendous ahavas yisroel of the Chofetz Chaim such a comment, that implies that most chassidishe yidden do not keep Shulchan Aruch, seems strange and out of character for the Chofetz Chaim. After all, he was one of the leaders of Agudas Yisrael. Would he have participated with those who he did not believe kept SA?

Given that I have never learned Breslov chassidus, I cannot explain a statement from Likutei Mohoran, but here are my thoughts.

When chassidus was first founded, The Ba'al Shem Tov sent shluchim to various villages to teach them the ways of chassidus. One of the things that they spoke against was the practice of prishus, common amongst Talmidei Chochomim of that day. During those times, many talmidei chochomim, would seperate from their wives, eat the bare minimum for survival, sleep on the floor, and torture themselves by rolling in the cold snow etc., as a way of seperating themselves from gashmiyus in order to become close to Hashem.

Chassidus, however, disapproved of this practice of self torture and emphasized that the proper way to serve hashem is through simcha and elevating gashimus. Could it be these types of chumros that R' Nachman was opposed to?

On the other hand, Tanya does emphasize theimportance of Kadeish atzmecha b'mutar lach, sanctifying oneself by not doing permitted things that are not l'shem shomayim, meaning that one should eat in order to serve Hashem, not because the food tastes good. Now, if that isn't considered machmir, than what is?

I think that perhaps this is the answer, that one should serve Hashem B'simcha, meaning that one should try, to the best of ones ability, to make all of one's actions l'shem shomayim which generally would not involve using kulos except when necessary for avodas Hashem (such as to maintain Shalom Bayis or not overburden oneself to the point that they get turned off from yiddishkeit.)

What are your thoughts?

shalhevet ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 5:46 am

What is a chumra for one person may be just the halacha for someone else. For many issues in halacha there are different opinions and one has to follow one's own rav. If your rav says that the machmir opinion is halacha, then for you it is halacha, even though someone else's rav (or your rav under different circumstances) has paskened to be meikel (lenient). For the other person though, it is a chumra. Eg our rav has paskened that we may open the fridge on Shabbat, whether or not the motor is running. So if we were careful about that, it would be a chumra. Whereas other rabbonim may pasken that it is assur, and therefore is the straight halacha.

If a person wants to take on a chumra he first has to examine carefully if it causes him to be lenient in something else, and then weigh up the benefit of the chumra with the harm which might result from it, and decide together with a rav which is the correct way. For example, someone decides to buy a more stringent hechsher for meat, which is correspondingly more expensive. By doing so he will have to work more and learn less - which is more important? Or someone decides to daven with the neitz (at sunrise) and so his 8 yr old son can no longer go to shul with him on Shabbos. Which is preferable? There are very few chumros which don't require extra money and/or time and/or effort which might be used for something else.

Perhaps that is what Rabbi Nachman was talking about? That people took on chumros which were difficult and then were angry and/or sad and/or depressed because of the difficulties involved?

About chassidim and the SA - I certainly can't speak for all chassidim, but my dh learns with many chassidim. Some of them have told him (these are serious learners) that when they really learn the halachos in the SA they see that it is very different from what "everyone" in their chassidus does and they are often in a quandary - to keep the SA, or to do what is expected of them in their chassidish group.

And Atali, I don't understand your comment about the CC. I don't know if he said what breslov quoted him as saying, but there is no contradiction between ahavas yisroel (loving the person) and saying his conduct needs correcting (not liking his deed).

↑ Atali ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 6:23 am

To Breslov- Okay, now that you gave the exact quote from the Chofetz Chayim it makes more sense, he wasn't saying that other chassidim don't keep shulchan aruch, just that not as many of them keep everything in itperfectly. (however, as a Lubavitcher who has heard many stories about great chassidim of that generation, I think that it is wrong to imply that most people in other chassiduses who keep SA properly, however given that we are talking about the CC her, I am assuming that it is not his intention)

To Shalhevet- As far as I understand, it is LH to generalize an entire group as behaving improperly (for example to say that the yidden in place x are like this, etc), unless it is known that the group as heretical views or are doing improper things which may harm others. Since the Chafetz Chayim was a member of Agudas Yisrael which included most of the Chassidishe Rebbeim of that time, he obvously did not consider them to be apikorsim. Now that I have seen the real wording of this statement, I undersand that he was simply saying that Breslover Chassidim are particularly careful in there observance of SA, not that everyone else isn't.

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 6:34 am

Quote:

About chassidim and the SA - I certainly can't speak for all chassidim, but my dh learns with many chassidim. Some of them have told him (these are serious learners) that when they really learn the halachos in the SA they see that it is very different from what "everyone" in their chassidus does and they are often in a quandary - to keep the SA, or to do what is expected of them in their chassidish group.

May I ask which Sefer these Chassidim are learning with your husband, a Litvak? What type of Chassidim are they, and why aren't they learning with their own crowd?

I can't imagine a single person I know learning seriously with a non-Chassid. The learning styles are completely different!! Which proves that your story is a reflection on these few (or maybe it's just one?) men that your husband knows.

You say, obviously, that you don't mean it to be a reflection on all Chassidim as a whole, but then what is the point of telling a story about a few people, right here in this thread?

For the hundredth time, Shalhevet, you owe Chassidim world-over an apology. At every chance you get, you bring another "proof" that Chassidim don't follow the Shulchan Aruch. This was a rumor that the Misnagdim tried to spread hundreds of years ago, and has been disproved many more times over. Chassidim are MORE machmir in Shulchan Aruch than a typical Yid. That is the point of being a Chassid- to be MORE machmir.

↑ Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:25 am

EstiS wrote:

breslov wrote:

Back then the chassidim were the simple folk, who, granted, just may not have known all the halachos..

what on earth? where did you get that from???

Ok, I didn't word that correctly.

Part of the whole idea of chassidus was that you didn't have to be a lamdan to serve Hashem. You didn't have to spend the whole day learning torah to be a true oved Hashem. Many chassidim were farmers, etc, and other simple folk. They may not have known halacha as well as those who spent all day learning. (Not saying they didn't, I say its possible some may have not known as much...)
Not saying chassidim don't keep SA at all- many chassidim are much more machmir than anyone else.
Btw- Shalhevet- maybe you misunderstood. Chassidim in general don't pasken according to the mishna brura- they pasken according to the shulchan aruch harav.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:26 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

May I ask which Sefer these Chassidim are learning with your husband, a Litvak? What type of Chassidim are they, and why aren't they learning with their own crowd?

Wow, what ahavas Yisroel! Actually, to us all Jews are our 'own crowd'. My dh has both Chasidim, Litvish and Sephardi Jews in his kolel. Perhaps you'd like to tell me why they aren't allowed to learn together? In the morning and afternoon (one kolel) they learn gemorra (as far as I know it was given to both Chasidim and Litvish) and in the evening (a different kolel) they learn Mishna Brura b'iyun with other poskim on the SA. That's what it's like in EY. Maybe you'd like to explain the apartheid system in Crown Heights.

Quote:

I can't imagine a single person I know learning seriously with a non-Chassid. The learning styles are completely different!! Which proves that your story is a reflection on these few (or maybe it's just one?) men that your husband knows.

It's quite a few. What is a reflection on them? Chassidim aren't supposed to be serious avreichim? They aren't supposed to learn halacha? Well, in my town they all get on fine. You know what - I even have chassidish neighbours and we are very friendly. I guess that couldn't happen in your town.

Quote:

You say, obviously, that you don't mean it to be a reflection on all Chassidim as a whole, but then what is the point of telling a story about a few people, right here in this thread?

Because there are some chassidim who know halacha and know all about the minhagim/ practices in their chassidus and they themselves say that it contradicts the SA. I actually wasn't trying to say one way or the other if it's wrong, because there are reasons for each thing, but it is a fact that some minhagim in at least some chassidus contradict the SA.
I'll give you an example one chassid told my dh. In his chassidus they daven until very close to shkiya on RH, from the morning. So he told my dh that they have a break before the shofar when they make kiddush and eat kugel and cake. My dh asked if they bentch and the chossid said no, b/c they aren't kovea seuda. But he said that many chassidim eat large quantities (remember this is their only meal that day) and definitely are kove'a seuda. But no-one washes and bentches, because they are before the shofar, so they can't be kove'a seuda!!

Quote:

For the hundredth time, Shalhevet, you owe Chassidim world-over an apology. At every chance you get, you bring another "proof" that Chassidim don't follow the Shulchan Aruch.

Sorry, with some chassiduses it is a fact. But they have reasons/ other daios which they are following. I wasn't trying to pass judgement if it was right or wrong. I also am not familiar with all the chassiduses and I don't know how many this applies to. Some examples: davenning and krias shema in time, women eating shalosh seudos.

Quote:

This was a rumor that the Misnagdim tried to spread hundreds of years ago, and has been disproved many more times over.

Really?

Quote:

Chassidim are MORE machmir in Shulchan Aruch than a typical Yid. That is the point of being a Chassid- to be MORE machmir.

That is a ridiculous statement. There are chassidim and misnagdim who are makpid and machmir and there are chassidim and misnagdim who aren't.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:34 am

breslov wrote:

EstiS wrote:

breslov wrote:

Back then the chassidim were the simple folk, who, granted, just may not have known all the halachos..

what on earth? where did you get that from???

Breslov, 100%. This was one of chassidus' great contributions to Am Yisroel. At a time when only very few had the opportunity to learn to a high level, they encouraged people with very little learning that they could still reach spiritual heights and it was worth it to try.

Quote:

Btw- Shalhevet- maybe you misunderstood. Chassidim in general don't pasken according to the mishna brura- they pasken according to the shulchan aruch harav.

I don't think this is true for most chassidus. Which chassidus (apart from Chabad) don't pasken according to the mishna brura?

↑ Seraph ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:43 am

shalhevet wrote:

breslov wrote:

EstiS wrote:

breslov wrote:

Back then the chassidim were the simple folk, who, granted, just may not have known all the halachos..

what on earth? where did you get that from???

Quote:

Btw- Shalhevet- maybe you misunderstood. Chassidim in general don't pasken according to the mishna brura- they pasken according to the shulchan aruch harav.

I don't think this is true for most chassidus. Which chassidus (apart from Chabad) don't pasken according to the mishna brura?

A satmer guy I "dated" told me they don't pasken by the mishna brura, but rather by the shulchan aruch harav.

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:45 am

Quote:

Part of the whole idea of chassidus was that you didn't have to be a lamdan to serve Hashem. You didn't have to spend the whole day learning torah to be a true oved Hashem. Many chassidim were farmers, etc, and other simple folk. They may not have known halacha as well as those who spent all day learning. (Not saying they didn't, I say its possible some may have not known as much...)

Breslov, the simple people you are talking about becameChassidim through the mystics sent around by the leaders of Chassidism of the time. Chassidim were then known to be more machmir and their learning definitely equalled their non-Chassidic peers, plus they were learned in Pnimiyus HaTorah.
Chassidim bridged the gap between the Talmidei Chachamim and the simple folk. Once the simple people realized that they were accepted and worth something even though they weren't learned, they were able to start out on a path towards becoming learned.
Sure, there were unlearned people who became Chassidim, but to say that Chassidim were unlearned as a whole is a ridiculous fallacy.

BTW, Breslov, don't you know the famous Baal Shem Tov story of the "Dead pages of Gemara?"

↑ gryp ↓

Sun, May 20 2007, 7:54 am

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I explained, there are completely different learning styles. Don't try and make me sound like I said you aren't allowed to learn together.

Quote:

Well, in my town they all get on fine. You know what - I even have chassidish neighbours and we are very friendly.

Glad to hear it. Something tells me there are those you are friendly with and those that you aren't.

I could imagine that men who are used to the Litvishe way of learning and don't spend much time delving into the Sfarim of their own Chassidus, enjoy the learning in a Litvishe style.