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PinkFridge
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 Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:42 pm
Still haven't caught up on my sleep. (Would have been hard to do so at work  ) But now I really see that it's my understanding that's lacking. I'll tackle it tomorrow if I can.
Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mommy3b2c
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:43 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | | Huh? What do you mean nobody knows? Don't people who take the text literally know? The torah text tells us that there were 6 days before that happened, why would that be ignored? |
Nobody is sure if those six days were literally 24 hour days or a different kind of "day".
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:51 pm
| mommy2b2c wrote: | | Nobody is sure if those six days were literally 24 hour days or a different kind of "day". |
The torah text says there were six days. A day means 24 hours. That is the literal meaning of the words.
Obviously, I think it's totally valid to accept that the text isn't talking about actual days, but I don't see how it's possible to suggest that it wasn't an actual day AND to still maintain the position that you are reading the torah literally. They seem like totally contradictory positions to me.
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ora_43
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:53 pm
| marina wrote: | | If God deliberately made an earth that was 5000 years old but looked like it was billions of years old, that is a lying deity who plays games with his people, tricking them and then being displeased when they don't believe the earth is 5000 years old. |
You're assuming the point of insta-creation would be to play a trick. I was thinking of it more as a matter of convenience (for lack of a term that would apply to an all-powerful being). If you have the power to create worlds and live outside of time, what's the difference between billions of years and six days?
You're also assuming Hashem is displeased when people don't believe the world is 5000 years old. I think part of the reason I see no problem with believing the world is just under 6,000 years old is that I don't believe that, and I think it's fine that I don't believe that.
| Quote: | | If you create an apple tree, knowing (because you are an omniscient deity) that the age of the tree will cause people to err about the age of the universe and then reject a true belief system ( a system you want them to accept because it is good and right) because they see it as inaccurate and unscientific, then you should have known better and you are deliberately tricking people. |
As we can see from just this thread, rejecting that theory of the universe and rejecting Judaism aren't the same thing. The account of creation in the Torah is not at all a central tenet of Jewish belief. It's not even a complete (or ordered) account of creation.
| Quote: | | If I have an painting my 3 year old scribbled yesterday and I represent it as a classic work of art from a 100 years ago, a sale based on that assumption would be morally fraudulent, if maybe not legally. |
If you want to file suit against God for misrepresenting the universe, please let me know. I'd love to be the first with that story.
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Scrabble123
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:53 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | The torah text says there were six days. A day means 24 hours. That is the literal meaning of the words.
Obviously, I think it's totally valid to accept that the text isn't talking about actual days, but I don't see how it's possible to suggest that it wasn't an actual day AND to still maintain the position that you are reading the torah literally. They seem like totally contradictory positions to me. |
There are meforshim and seforim that clearly state that a day was not how we understand a "day" to be. I'll try to ask around and find the sources for you.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 4:59 pm
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | There are meforshim and seforim that clearly state that a day was not how we understand a "day" to be. I'll try to ask around and find the sources for you. |
It's fine to say that. I know of these meforshim. But those meforshim are implicitly acknowledging that the text is not to be taken literally! I'm not trying to invalidate this approach. I'm simply trying to understand how one can take this approach and still maintain that they are reading the text literally.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:01 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | | If you want to file suit against God for misrepresenting the universe, please let me know. I'd love to be the first with that story. |
God's already being sued, for breach of contract: http://www.theonion.com/articl.....,423/
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ora_43
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:13 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | Sure, an all-powerful G-d could have created a world that looks older than it is, but it’s always baffled me that people take this idea seriously, since it undermines the very basis of knowing anything at all, ever. It’s saying that even though every bit of evidence tells us that Event A happened, we should accept that actually it was Event B that happened. Why? Because an all-powerful G-d can do anything.
Once you accept this idea as a possibility, why not use it anywhere? Next time your husband asks you why you didn’t do something, just respond with, “Yes, it looks like I didn’t do it, but really Hashem made it that way because He only wants it to look that way, even though I did!” Next time someone judges you for not being tznius enough, say, “Hashem only made the poskim think we’re supposed to do that, but really we don’t have to.” Next time someone’s caught embezzling money, they should say to the judge, “Your honor, it only looks like I committed a felony because G-d made it appear that way. But really it’s nothing like that at all.”
And when people look at you like you’re crazy, and say, “That doesn’t make any sense. Why in the world would G-d do that?” just tell them, “G-d is beyond our understanding, we can’t know why He does anything. But since He is all powerful, he obviously could have done this!” |
Do you not see a difference between someone believing that Hashem created an old-looking world, and someone deliberately lying?
I'm also not sure how the second two paragraphs would apply to people who believe the world was created in six literal days any more than to people who believe Hashem created the world over the course of billions of years. Anyone who believes Hashem can do anything could, in theory, argue that it only looks like they didn't do the laundry due to divine meddling. But people generally don't, because come on, let's be serious here.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:20 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | | Do you not see a difference between someone believing that Hashem created an old-looking world, and someone deliberately lying? |
Do you not see that saying G-d created a 5775 year old world that only looks like it's billions of years old is not that far off from saying that G-d is a liar?
Requisite disclaimer: I am not saying G-d is a liar, but rather that many people would reasonably see this position as implying as such.
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yogabird
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:24 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | The torah text says there were six days. A day means 24 hours. That is the literal meaning of the words.
Obviously, I think it's totally valid to accept that the text isn't talking about actual days, but I don't see how it's possible to suggest that it wasn't an actual day AND to still maintain the position that you are reading the torah literally. They seem like totally contradictory positions to me. |
No clue if any meforshim maintain this applies to any part of this particular narrative, but in general, there are pesukim whose most pashut interpretation is actually on the level of drash, remez or even sod. It makes more sense to understand them on a more symbolic level. Obviously, I'm not the one who makes that call, rashi traditionally gets to call the shots.
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ora_43
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:25 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | | Do you not see that saying G-d created a 5775 year old world that only looks like it's billions of years old is not that far off from saying that G-d is a liar? |
No. It's not like anyone is claiming G-d said the world is billions of years old. In fact, people who believe it isn't are saying G-d specifically said the opposite.
L'havdil, but if I wear costume jewelry and you think it looks like real gold, that doesn't make me a liar.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 5:41 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | | No. It's not like anyone is claiming G-d said the world is billions of years old. In fact, people who believe it isn't are saying G-d specifically said the opposite. |
I understand that believers in a young earth aren't claiming that, but they are asking the rest of the world to believe their young earth idea too, aren't they? (At least some of them are.)
G-d speaks to us through nature. To believers in the evidence that points to a world being billions of years old, being asked to believe that G-d only made it look like it's billions of years old is indeed asking them to believe in a god that lies to us about reality.
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mamita
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 6:50 pm
The idea of the world being created already aged:
When Adam was created he was already a grown man looking for a wife and soon after fathering children. However, in fact, he was a day old, and then a few days old, from his creation.
G-D created plant life. Not just planted seeds that still had to take root and grow but actual trees, plants etc.
The etz hadaas tree already had fruits.
The world was created ready to go.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 8:41 pm
So far this is the most distasteful. Can hardly wait to tackle the rest of the page 
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 8:44 pm
| Quote: | You're assuming the point of insta-creation would be to play a trick. I was thinking of it more as a matter of convenience (for lack of a term that would apply to an all-powerful being). If you have the power to create worlds and live outside of time, what's the difference between billions of years and six days?
You're also assuming Hashem is displeased when people don't believe the world is 5000 years old. I think part of the reason I see no problem with believing the world is just under 6,000 years old is that I don't believe that, and I think it's fine that I don't believe that. |
The more religious Jews and Christians believe the earth is under 6000 years old. This belief is cited by many secular people as an example of the silliness of antiquated religion. If God could have foreseen that and presumably he doesn't want people to see religion as a joke, why wouldn't he have created the world to appear consistent with its actual age? Regardless of whether that age is 5000 or 5 billion years.
It might not matter to him b/c he is not constrained by time, but it would matter to people, the same ones that are supposed to follow religious teachings...
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