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DrMom
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 Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:29 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | But "Dinosaurs love" is?  |
"Dinosaur Love" is a great name for a rock band.
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:30 am
| ora_43 wrote: | I don't see what the problem would be. The process of world-creation is the same either way, it's just a question of whether the process took as long as it normally would or if it was sped up.
Like, if I had divine powers, and I created a full-grown apple tree instantaneously, and then someone came up and said "wow, what a nice tree, it must be ten years old," and I said, "nah, it's brand new, I just made it right now," and they said, "no, it's clearly ten years old" - did I intentionally make them believe lies? was it morally wrong to instantly create a full-grown tree, instead of causing it to grow slowly over the course of 10 literal years? |
If God deliberately made an earth that was 5000 years old but looked like it was billions of years old, that is a lying deity who plays games with his people, tricking them and then being displeased when they don't believe the earth is 5000 years old.
If you create an apple tree, knowing (because you are an omniscient deity) that the age of the tree will cause people to err about the age of the universe and then reject a true belief system ( a system you want them to accept because it is good and right) because they see it as inaccurate and unscientific, then you should have known better and you are deliberately tricking people.
If I have an painting my 3 year old scribbled yesterday and I represent it as a classic work of art from a 100 years ago, a sale based on that assumption would be morally fraudulent, if maybe not legally.
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bigsis144
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:32 am
| DrMom wrote: | | "Dinosaur Love" is a great name for a rock band. |
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:34 am
| DrMom wrote: | What "previous destroyed worlds?"
"Worlds" on planet Earth, or things from other planets?
What does this mean?? |
This is a kaballistic concept based on an interpretation of a pasuk in bereishis. But it still doesn't really address the issue in my opinion, because so what? There were previously destroyed worlds, whatever that means. So our planet is just an extension of those destroyed worlds; I guess that means our planet is billions of years old and the destroyed worlds could just be particular eons.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:44 am
| DrMom wrote: | | "Dinosaur Love" is a great name for a rock band. |
And I bet it makes a much better song than Muskrat Love.
But back to the topic at hand:
For me, however creation came about, it doesn't shter my belief that there is (was, will be) a Creator, Whom we can connect to and Who gave us a manual to do so.
And again, I don't find the how of creation to be mind games, any more than any of His actions, or the actions He has allowed, such as flood, pestilence, pogroms.
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marina
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:49 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | And I bet it makes a much better song than Muskrat Love.
But back to the topic at hand:
For me, however creation came about, it doesn't shter my belief that there is (was, will be) a Creator, Whom we can connect to and Who gave us a manual to do so.
And again, I don't find the how of creation to be mind games, any more than any of His actions, or the actions He has allowed, such as flood, pestilence, pogroms. |
Flood, pestilence- these are results of natural laws. Pogroms are made by evil people. The world would be a very different place if no bad things ever happened. A non recognizable place.
In contrast, tricking people into believing the earth is older than it is? What is the point of that? How would our world be radically different if everyone knew the world was actually 5000 years old?
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amother
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:52 am
| amother wrote: | | How do you explain the bones are millions of years old? I'm searching for an answer that makes just a little sense. How would you answer someone and explain it to them if your teaching them about Torah? |
Are you willing to read scientific research about it or your wish is just to get to know a simple explanation that you can give to a not-so-educated student?
If you want the full thing on how life on Earth started, you should start with a documentary. Cosmos-A Space Time Odissey, available on Netflix has a very complete (and beautifully done) explanation on the beggining of Universe, Planets and life on Earth.
If you want the short version, according to the Torah, life on Earth started in the water. Only after the dry-land animals showed up. These two stages confirm evolution, which took hundreds of years of evolution to be made. Dinosaurs, as reptiles that originally came out of water, lived on Earth for a looong time until its extinction.
Now, if you want the "closed in a box" information, that will never satisfy a curious mind, but might calm down your student, just say that Hashem created everything according to the Bereishit narrative, but that the 24 hour day should not be taken literally.
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amother
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:53 am
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Ops, I meant hundreds of millions of years!
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:15 am
| marina wrote: | | This is a kaballistic concept based on an interpretation of a pasuk in bereishis. But it still doesn't really address the issue in my opinion, because so what? There were previously destroyed worlds, whatever that means. So our planet is just an extension of those destroyed worlds; I guess that means our planet is billions of years old and the destroyed worlds could just be particular eons. |
My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, why would a force that completely destroyed a *planet* allow something as delicate as a dinosaur skeleton to survive?
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:39 am
| marina wrote: | Flood, pestilence- these are results of natural laws. Pogroms are made by evil people. The world would be a very different place if no bad things ever happened. A non recognizable place.
In contrast, tricking people into believing the earth is older than it is? What is the point of that? How would our world be radically different if everyone knew the world was actually 5000 years old? |
Ah, ok. If you leave G-d out of flood, pestilence, and pogroms, I see why you're so much more troubled by the second paragraph. I've grappled a lot more with the first in my life. And came out where I'm supposed to, I hope.
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:48 am
Sure, an all-powerful G-d could have created a world that looks older than it is, but it’s always baffled me that people take this idea seriously, since it undermines the very basis of knowing anything at all, ever. It’s saying that even though every bit of evidence tells us that Event A happened, we should accept that actually it was Event B that happened. Why? Because an all-powerful G-d can do anything.
Once you accept this idea as a possibility, why not use it anywhere? Next time your husband asks you why you didn’t do something, just respond with, “Yes, it looks like I didn’t do it, but really Hashem made it that way because He only wants it to look that way, even though I did!” Next time someone judges you for not being tznius enough, say, “Hashem only made the poskim think we’re supposed to do that, but really we don’t have to.” Next time someone’s caught embezzling money, they should say to the judge, “Your honor, it only looks like I committed a felony because G-d made it appear that way. But really it’s nothing like that at all.”
And when people look at you like you’re crazy, and say, “That doesn’t make any sense. Why in the world would G-d do that?” just tell them, “G-d is beyond our understanding, we can’t know why He does anything. But since He is all powerful, he obviously could have done this!”
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Shani88
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:48 am
| bigsis144 wrote: | | Your argument was already discussed on page 1... |
Didn't read any responses but thanks for pointing that out 
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mommy3b2c
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:50 am
| marina wrote: | If God deliberately made an earth that was 5000 years old but looked like it was billions of years old, that is a lying deity who plays games with his people, tricking them and then being displeased when they don't believe the earth is 5000 years old.
If you create an apple tree, knowing (because you are an omniscient deity) that the age of the tree will cause people to err about the age of the universe and then reject a true belief system ( a system you want them to accept because it is good and right) because they see it as inaccurate and unscientific, then you should have known better and you are deliberately tricking people.
If I have an painting my 3 year old scribbled yesterday and I represent it as a classic work of art from a 100 years ago, a sale based on that assumption would be morally fraudulent, if maybe not legally. |
Just because we don't fully understand it, doesn't mean He is "tricking" us. Not everything that G-d does/did is explainable at a satisfactory level to the human mind. There are many explanations. You can choose to believe anyone of them. Or you can believe that the explanation was not found yet. One thing I know for sure, is that the world that we know today is only around for 5000 something years. What happened before, my guess is as good as yours.
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:03 pm
| mommy2b2c wrote: | | Just because we don't fully understand it, doesn't mean He is "tricking" us. Not everything that G-d does/did is explainable at a satisfactory level to the human mind. There are many explanations. You can choose to believe anyone of them. Or you can believe that the explanation was not found yet. One thing I know for sure, is that the world that we know today is only around for 5000 something years. What happened before, my guess is as good as yours. |
What does this mean? This is exactly the subject under discussion -- asserting that you know this "for sure" doesn't prove anything. Or do I misunderstand what you are trying to say?
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:13 pm
| BlueRose52 wrote: | Sure, an all-powerful G-d could have created a world that looks older than it is, but it’s always baffled me that people take this idea seriously, since it undermines the very basis of knowing anything at all, ever. It’s saying that even though every bit of evidence tells us that Event A happened, we should accept that actually it was Event B that happened. Why? Because an all-powerful G-d can do anything.
Once you accept this idea as a possibility, why not use it anywhere? Next time your husband asks you why you didn’t do something, just respond with, “Yes, it looks like I didn’t do it, but really Hashem made it that way because He only wants it to look that way, even though I did!” Next time someone judges you for not being tznius enough, say, “Hashem only made the poskim think we’re supposed to do that, but really we don’t have to.” Next time someone’s caught embezzling money, they should say to the judge, “Your honor, it only looks like I committed a felony because G-d made it appear that way. But really it’s nothing like that at all.”
And when people look at you like you’re crazy, and say, “That doesn’t make any sense. Why in the world would G-d do that?” just tell them, “G-d is beyond our understanding, we can’t know why He does anything. But since He is all powerful, he obviously could have done this!” |
I'm a bit sleep-deprived. I'll have to save this to read another day. Maybe then I'll understand it.
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MagentaYenta
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:19 pm
| marina wrote: | Flood, pestilence- these are results of natural laws. Pogroms are made by evil people. The world would be a very different place if no bad things ever happened. A non recognizable place.
In contrast, tricking people into believing the earth is older than it is? What is the point of that? How would our world be radically different if everyone knew the world was actually 5000 years old? |
And how does one explain a 500 million year old fossil I have on my coffee table if the world is only 5000 years old.
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mamita
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:32 pm
En mikra yotze midei pshuto
It is interesting that science is being taken as an absolute given whilst the Torah is questionable.
The study of science itself is anything but absolute.
The study of science is about taking a known quantity and trying to determine, based on available data how we got there and how this could affect us.
For example I have a number: 6.
How did we get the number 6? was it 2+2+2? 3+3? 10-4? etc etc. Theorizing its way back to the starting point. Science searches for as much data to coroborate its theories along the way.
The present quantity itself is not absolute . What is fact today in a few years or under different circumstances will present differently. This is very noticeable over the years of scientific study of the universe, genetics, health etc etc etc. Even as we have developed over the last 100 years and decades we can not know what we will discover to change the picture in the next decades. Human knowledge is far from all knowing. In fact the greater the research scientist the more he acknowledges human limitations.
Science at best can be defined as an educated theory or probability.
Now, back to the dinosaurs. Research scientists have long ceased accepting them as a scientific way of dating the universe. Scientifically to back a theory, you need proofs at various marks along the way.
So I have these billions of years old fossils. I need now fossils dating back a billion years and a few million years etc until some date of extinsion. And no such proofs were found. One theory relagated to the trash.
But we still have this quantity (fossils) and we are trying to track their history backwards.
Another theory, more scientifically acceptable, was that there was a majorly drastic atmspheric change that caused them to look so very different and aged.
The Noahide flood was not only a flood, tsunami etc. The entire universe ceased functioning as we know it. As it says , the sun , moon and stars ceased functioning etc. And therefore this very likely affected the dinosaur remains in an unnaturally extreme way. 'tampering' with them;)
The Torah on the other hand, begins at the starting point and builds up block by block until we arrive at our present quantity.
The above is not my own ideas. It is based on the works of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
The question remains if so :why is this not changed in the school textbooks accordingly?
I can not answer absolutely, I am not a decision maker;) However lets take into account that the fossils were a very exciting discovery that was very well advertised. 'proofs' negating the bible are a very precious commodity when having to face Superior responsibility. and of course who is making the big bucks out of this...
There are very many lies that abound as facts because it serves some peoples purpose. in medicine, politics, etc. The Most in-your-face one as Jews being the presentation of Israel as demonic killers of Arabs. That innumerable Europians and Americans sincerely believe. They saw it on the news.. BBC, NY times etc etc etc...
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:41 pm
| mamita wrote: | En mikra yotze midei pshuto
It is interesting that science is being taken as an absolute given whilst the Torah is questionable.
The study of science itself is anything but absolute.
The study of science is about taking a known quantity and trying to determine, based on available data how we got there and how this could affect us.
For example I have a number: 6.
How did we get the number 6? was it 2+2+2? 3+3? 10-4? etc etc. Theorizing its way back to the starting point. Science searches for as much data to coroborate its theories along the way.
The present quantity itself is not absolute . What is fact today in a few years or under different circumstances will present differently. This is very noticeable over the years of scientific study of the universe, genetics, health etc etc etc. Even as we have developed over the last 100 years and decades we can not know what we will discover to change the picture in the next decades. Human knowledge is far from all knowing. In fact the greater the research scientist the more he acknowledges human limitations.
Science at best can be defined as an educated theory or probability.
Now, back to the dinosaurs. Research scientists have long ceased accepting them as a scientific way of dating the universe. Scientifically to back a theory, you need proofs at various marks along the way.
So I have these billions of years old fossils. I need now fossils dating back a billion years and a few million years etc until some date of extinsion. And no such proofs were found. One theory relagated to the trash.
But we still have this quantity (fossils) and we are trying to track their history backwards.
Another theory, more scientifically acceptable, was that there was a majorly drastic atmspheric change that caused them to look so very different and aged.
The Noahide flood was not only a flood, tsunami etc. The entire universe ceased functioning as we know it. As it says , the sun , moon and stars ceased functioning etc. And therefore this very likely affected the dinosaur remains in an unnaturally extreme way. 'tampering' with them;)
The Torah on the other hand, begins at the starting point and builds up block by block until we arrive at our present quantity.
The above is not my own ideas. It is based on the works of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
The question remains if so :why is this not changed in the school textbooks accordingly?
I can not answer absolutely, I am not a decision maker;) However lets take into account that the fossils were a very exciting discovery that was very well advertised. 'proofs' negating the bible are a very precious commodity when having to face Superior responsibility. and of course who is making the big bucks out of this...
There are very many lies that abound as facts because it serves some peoples purpose. in medicine, politics, etc. The Most in-your-face one as Jews being the presentation of Israel as demonic killers of Arabs. That innumerable Europians and Americans sincerely believe. They saw it on the news.. BBC, NY times etc etc etc... |
I don't understand what your point is about the number 6.
About why many of us are looking to science for answers about the age/existence of dinosaurs:
Science is something which is testable -- that is the nature of scientific inquiry: hypothesis, experimentation/data collection, conclusions. Conclusions and understandings evolve as new data and information is added.
Who knows? Maybe some new data will reveal that the earth is between 5000-6000 years old. But for now, that is not what all the data suggest, so for now, scientific theory does not say that.
If both Tora and science must be true, then these two worldviews should converge to the same points. So either scientific data/understanding is wrong or our understanding of Torah is wrong (note: I did not say the Torah is wrong, only our understanding may be imperfect).
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BlueRose52
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Mon, Feb 16 2015, 12:51 pm
Every time this topic comes up I have to remind myself that it's vitally important to understand the mindset of the person asking the question. If one fervently believes in the literal truth of the bereishis account and thinks that it's heretical to veer from that understanding in any way, then I don't see the point in bringing in any scientific evidence or reasoning. You want to believe that, that's fine. I would politely decline to discuss the matter further with such a person. I have no need, nor desire, to start convincing such a person that they're wrong.
However, if the person is open to views that don't take that belief as absolutely essential, there is plenty to discuss.
I think it would be helpful to keep this in mind. There's no point in trying to change the minds of people who are staunch believers that our universe is only 5775 years young. The only productive conversation that can occur is among those who don't find believing in a literal 6-day bereishis an inviolable truth.
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