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amother
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 Sun, Feb 15 2015, 11:29 am
| mommy2b2c wrote: | | The first humans were not babies. Why isn't possible that the first dinosaurs weren't babies? |
There were dinasour babies, they found baby bones, eggs, and even mothers sitting on eggs in a nest.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 11:40 am
| sequoia wrote: | There's nothing to explain. The earth is millions of years old. That's okay.
The six days of creation are metaphorical. It's not something that bothers or even occurs to large swathes of frum Jews. |
When when did we start counting the jewish years from? Hashem created the world millions years ago?
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 11:53 am
| amother wrote: | | When when did we start counting the jewish years from? Hashem created the world millions years ago? |
From the day Odom and Chava were created.
And Marina, I'm not ignoring you. I have to think about this. I still don't know if I'll come up with an answer that can work for you on any level.
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 11:57 am
| marina wrote: | If you believe that Jews should be practicing orthodoxy, that is a problem. Because the age of the world is certainly one aspect of frumkeit that many secular Jews disagree with and they include that when they discard religion as outdated and unscientific and unsophisticated.
So why would Hashem create a world that essentially encourages people to come to a faulty conclusion- namely that the world is older than it is? |
So if we go with the metaphor, and say that the 6 days weren't 144 hours are we avoiding the problem? This is fine with me. It doesn't affect how I relate to G-d or keep His mitzvos.
And you ask why He'd create a world that causes people to come faulty conclusions. Some people question how a loving G-d can allow horror to happen; that disproves His existence to them just as easily...
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sequoia
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 12:45 pm
| amother wrote: | | When when did we start counting the jewish years from? Hashem created the world millions years ago? |
Yes, the universe, Milky Way galaxy, solar system, earth... are very old.
Then humans came along. And history began.
For me, science does not contradict biblical revelation. Jewish history is OUR story -- the story of the birth and development of a people who brought ethical monotheism to the world. It isn't a science textbook.
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mazal555
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 1:01 pm
This is explained in the Zohar also. Modern science also proves this.
That because time moves at different speeds based on where in the universe you are (inside, or at the expanding edge) 6 days from outside the universe (where G-d is) would take 15 billion years from the center of the universe (where we are), more or less.
There is a math equation that proves it but I don't remember the equation. But there is no conflict between science and the Torah and it is literal. it says first the earth was covered with water, which science proves, and the G-d separated the waters, which science proves that atmosphere cam along after, and then there was plant life, and then animal life and people came much later. Which science proves. Even how long 'people' have been on earth, if you plug in the equation to the number of hours on Friday that it took to create Adam, it comes out to be pretty close to what science says in terms of years.
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bigsis144
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 1:19 pm
| mazal555 wrote: | This is explained in the Zohar also. Modern science also proves this.
That because time moves at different speeds based on where in the universe you are (inside, or at the expanding edge) 6 days from outside the universe (where G-d is) would take 15 billion years from the center of the universe (where we are), more or less.
There is a math equation that proves it but I don't remember the equation. But there is no conflict between science and the Torah and it is literal. it says first the earth was covered with water, which science proves, and the G-d separated the waters, which science proves that atmosphere cam along after, and then there was plant life, and then animal life and people came much later. Which science proves. Even how long 'people' have been on earth, if you plug in the equation to the number of hours on Friday that it took to create Adam, it comes out to be pretty close to what science says in terms of years. |
Day 4: The sun and moon were created on the same day, AFTER Hashem created plants?
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Scrabble123
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 1:32 pm
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This is a little off topic, but even today science has the ability to manipulate time and understand for its possibility. Particles traveling at speeds greater than is safe for any human being in enclosed areas age only a matter of minutes when in reality they have traveled for even days or hours. There is a concept that through speeding up traveling and pace time kind of "slows" down in that isolated area. Take a train for instance: if it would be traveling fast enough to slow time the train and the people on it would age according to the slower time, but when they get to their destination, the earth could have ages hundreds of years. Obviously we are not up to that, but it is an acceptable concept in science. Stephen Hawking discusses it a lot. It just shows you that "time" is not necessarily how you understand it. People may have aged differently, days may have been longer, etc. etc. Dinosaurs are not something that should be causing any confusion....
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bigsis144
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 1:43 pm
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | This is a little off topic, but even today science has the ability to manipulate time and understand for its possibility. Particles traveling at speeds greater than is safe for any human being in enclosed areas age only a matter of minutes when in reality they have traveled for even days or hours. There is a concept that through speeding up traveling and pace time kind of "slows" down in that isolated area. Take a train for instance: if it would be traveling fast enough to slow time the train and the people on it would age according to the slower time, but when they get to their destination, the earth could have ages hundreds of years. Obviously we are not up to that, but it is an acceptable concept in science. Stephen Hawking discusses it a lot. It just shows you that "time" is not necessarily how you understand it. People may have aged differently, days may have been longer, etc. etc. Dinosaurs are not something that should be causing any confusion.... |
Time dilation is real, yes, but are you talking about Mesushalach having lived 969 years because he was traveling closer to the speed of light than we are? Who was aging at a "normal" rate? Were they also on Earth at the same time? Or are we comparing to a "slower" system now?
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imasoftov
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 2:24 pm
| sequoia wrote: | There's nothing to explain. The earth is millions of years old. That's okay.
The six days of creation are metaphorical. It's not something that bothers or even occurs to large swathes of frum Jews. |
this
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amother
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 2:36 pm
So the universe can be billions of years old, because of understanding of time. That means dinasour weren't created the same time as all the other animals? Having the universe being millions years old is different then things living on earth for millions of years, and saying that Hashem created animals and man, and said they were created the same day, thousands of years ago.
So I guess what in trying to ask, it's possible these dinasours weren't created on the sixth day with the rest of the animals? A totally different time Hashem made them?
Also, when did the 24 hour day start?
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Zus
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 3:02 pm
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Modern science also claims that 24 hour-long Earth days did not always exist For 24-hour days, the Earth, sun and moon and the starts (at least the ones in our close vicinity) need to be in the fairly exact locations where they are now - this is what makes Earth spin around its axis in (almost) exactly 24 hours.
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tigerwife
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 4:18 pm
| amother wrote: | | There were dinasour babies, they found baby bones, eggs, and even mothers sitting on eggs in a nest. |
Well, yes. Why couldn't the original dinosaurs reproduce?
Or are we dancing around chicken and egg?
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shoshanim999
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 5:00 pm
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The problem with explaining the existence of fossils and maseh braeshis by saying the the torah is not to be taken literally is that what should I do with the rest of the torah? Where the jews really having 6 babies at a time in Egypt? Did those Makkos really happen? Did the sea literally split? Did the Mun really sustain the jews in the desert? Am I to accept all this as actual literal events that took place exactly as described in the torah but when it comes to the portion that describes the creation of the world, well that was just a metaphor and not literal. Its hard to accept that part of the torah is literal fact and part isn't.
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sequoia
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 5:37 pm
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I don't remember anything about six babies at a time. Where is that from?
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Frumdoc
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 5:44 pm
| shoshanim999 wrote: | | The problem with explaining the existence of fossils and maseh braeshis by saying the the torah is not to be taken literally is that what should I do with the rest of the torah? Where the jews really having 6 babies at a time in Egypt? Did those Makkos really happen? Did the sea literally split? Did the Mun really sustain the jews in the desert? Am I to accept all this as actual literal events that took place exactly as described in the torah but when it comes to the portion that describes the creation of the world, well that was just a metaphor and not literal. Its hard to accept that part of the torah is literal fact and part isn't. |
I did look into the six babies thing, which is not pshat, btw. It is a calculation by a rishon (I think, can't remember who) and a debate amongst them, based on the number who were at Har Sinai and the number who went into Egypt, and one assumption was that women could only get pregnant every 2 years at the maximum, so to get from 70 to 600,000 (or 2 million) they had to have six babies per pregnancy. Others argued that they had fewer babies, but very shortened pregnancies. Plus a zero infant mortality.
Then again, Rashi argues that no numbers in the Chumash are supposed to be taken literally, unless they are very small, so 600,000 just means very very many. This is frequently used and refered to in gemara, about many different numbers and calculations from Tenach.
If they had a pregnancy per year, as people can do now, this would only be 3 per pregnancy, although this is not brought as a possibility, probably because at the time he was writing, having a pregnancy per year was unheard of. So the six babies thing is based on a calculation with the presuppositions that themselves were based on a historical time period far distant from Yetziat Mitzrayim.
But this midrashic/rabbinic interpretation isn't exactly one of the 13 maamim. If you read the actual pshat in the chumash, much of what we have down as "gospel" is midrash, surprising amounts. And many consider that this does not need to be held as literal or historical truth.
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BlueRose52
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 5:56 pm
These old threads discussing these topics might be useful to you:
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....63427
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....34717
Also, hate to break it to those of you proposing this, but the age of the universe being much older than the torah's record of 5775 years is not simply due to geologic formations that can somehow be explained away by the mabul (not that that really explains it, but if you want to believe that, I won't argue.) There is cosmological, biological, astronomical, and other evidence leading to that conclusion.
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Think1st
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 6:52 pm
| mommy2b2c wrote: | | G-d created the world in an adult state. Things weren't created as babies, they were created as already aged. Therefore, old things look a lot older then they actually are. There are those that say the mabul aged everything even more. I don't feel like it's that hard to understand. |
Well said, BTW how do they "know" what color it was ?
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octopus
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 6:57 pm
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the age of the universe and the age of the world that we live in are two separate things. Hashem created worlds before this one and destroyed them. This world has some remnants of the old ones including the dinosaur bones.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 15 2015, 7:18 pm
| octopus wrote: | | the age of the universe and the age of the world that we live in are two separate things. Hashem created worlds before this one and destroyed them. This world has some remnants of the old ones including the dinosaur bones. |
That's interasting, do you have any sources for this? Would like to look it up.
They don't claim to know the color of dinasours, it's only a guess, they all say that. They do sometimes know the texture of their skin from the imprints on the ground.
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