Million Man Atzeres

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:00 am

Can you imagine what an incredible zchus it would be if EVERYONE said Tehillim at the same time, no matter what each person's position is? Let's all pray for Mashiach, and for real unity in Klall Yisrael for once! It would be such a powerful thing, especially for those who disagree, to not let that get in the way of davening for Shalom HaAretz. What an incredible opportunity to storm the heavens and ask for this whole nation to finally get clarity and closeness. Just pray, because prayer is good. I'm sure it will be a tremendous nachas ruach for Hakadosh Baruch Hu.

bashinda ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:14 am

agreed. that's the sad thing here. what an opportunity there was for achdus. I'm not in Israel so I don't feel I have any real understanding of the situation and I know it's not black and white.

The thing is though, I can respect people who are following their rabbonim who are saying not to go the same way I can respect people who are following their rabbonim saying it's essential they go.

In the mean time it's very easy for me to pick up a sefer Tehillim and say some perokim for achdus and for a solution which we can all live with.

Maybe it's easy for me to say this. Yes it is very easy for me to say this and I do admit that. I don't live in Israel right now. I'm not chareidi or dati leumi. I guess maybe I'd be chardal if I lived in EY. I have no real clue, but please let's daven for achdus and real ahavas yisroel which means we respect people even when their rabbonim disagree with my rabbonim.

chocmom

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:20 am

I don't think that criminal sanctions are the way to go, both b/c I think it's impractical to implement, and more significantly, because I think that torah learning should be valued in this country

HOWEVER

I think that the rally is a slap in the face to everyone who has served in this country. I am extremely appreciative of the IDF. I may not think it is perfect but that does not detract from how grateful I am that each IDF soldier, religious or not, is defending me and my country.

I also think that to keep talking about the "torah world"" in a way that clearly excludes anyone not charedi is extremely offensive.

The hatred that exists between groups literally makes me ill and feel like crying. It should be possible to state that you think something is valuable without totally trashing others.

someone

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:29 am

I dont know how to paste it here but to the person who asked why DL people or Rabbis wouldnt want to go to the atzeret, there are Rabbis who yesterday said people should go who withdrew it today becasue of what Yated Neeman said about HaRav Drukman this morning. And I saw yesterday that Rav Zalman Melamed the Rosh Yeshiva of Beit El said he is debating going (I dont know what he decided in the end) because the Chareidim dont see us or treat us and our talmidei chachamim with respect, as equals.
I can say personally that I would have a hard time taking part in a rally organised by people who dont recognise the Medina and see it as a bad thing and an enemy. Even if I also am not a big fan of the law and especially the way it has been done the whole basic approach of the Chareidi world to the government and the Medina is opposed to mine. Its their right to think what they think but I would have a hard time protesting together with them.
For the record though, I live in a Chardal yishuv and their was a hasaah from here to the atzeret

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:31 am

Just finished reading all 10 pages of this thread. So predictable. It all reminds me so much of the many mass ~~protests~~ prayer rallies that have taken place in past years. Same vacuous arguments; same naivete; same histrionics; same partisanship; same distortions of the realities.

מַה-שֶּׁהָיָה, הוּא שֶׁיִּהְיֶה, וּמַה-שֶּׁנַּעֲשָׂה, הוּא שֶׁיֵּעָשֶׂה; וְאֵין כָּל-חָדָשׁ, תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ.

Peanut2

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:31 am

shalhevet wrote:

So you agree that people should be imprisoned for learning Torah? If they choose to do so instead of going to the army?

It isn't a protest - it's a rally to proclaim Hashem Echad! To make a kiddush Hashem to combat the massive chilul Hashem of the State of Israel being the only place in the world which (today) wants to imprison Jews for learning Torah. Surely every religious Jew believes in that?

Just as a by the way, do you believe Israeli Arabs should be drafted?

A man can go to the army and learn Torah. Just like men learning Torah do all sorts of things (like go to rallies.) They could even teach Torah as part of army service, or learn a profession, or set aside times for learning.

Arabs should be drafted to a form of service as well.

Prison sentences aren't part of the issue here, but there is freedom to learn Torah for everyone in EY.

Or are you saying that Lev Tahor are getting in trouble in Canada for learning or practicing Torah? Torah learning isn't the issue here. It's draft dodging and not participating in the defense of the country (Eretz Yisrael, you know), as well as contributing to the country by participating in civilian and economic life.

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:39 am

I don't have time to read this whole thread. I just want to say that Rabbi Reisman addressed it last night, March 1, 2014. It's worth getting hold of the shiur, though it does cost.
A few quick soundbites:
People will say, my children are going to war and making the ultimate sacrifice. OTOH, how can we diminish Talmud Torah? [I'm not doing him justice. You could hear his genuine feelings for the pain of those in the first half of this thought.]
Normally in times of war, we have E"Y in mind in the bracha of Re'ai na riveinu. But how can we do that when there's infighting?

Basically, his passion for E"Y came through again, and how we have to understand that our identity as a people is inextricably in both the land and the Torah. I really would like to elaborate. I will just say that if there was one thing that was missing, it was a feeling of us vs. them. We're in this together.

5*Mom

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:42 am

shevi82 wrote:

There is a story told of Rav Aryeh Levine who was walking on shabbos and passed by two people who were calling out to cars driving by "Shabbos, Shabbos!" he went and joined them and called out with them Shabbos. People approached him and said Reb Aryeh , this so not like you , to stand here and yell. Reb Aryeh answered them "since I passed here and heard these men calling out Shabbos I must join them otherwise I am on the other side."
Today we are calling out Torah! And anyone who does not join is on the other side.

This is it in a nutshell. It isn't about the army, and it certainly isn't about the Torah. It's about what happens after decades and decades of people who claim to represent the Torah loudly proclaiming that their brothers are on "the other side."

I don't believe this story for a second.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:55 am

Sanguine wrote:

Things got quiet here - I guess everyone's at the Atzeret (or watching it on TV) - good - I can go make supper

No, I was at an azkara for a young terror victim. Many of his former classmates from the yeshiva were there - some toting guns and in uniform, others on leave from the army and in civilian dress. These dedicated young men obviously see no contradiction between avodat hashem and defending one's country in an army framework. I don't either.

↑ rosehill ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:56 am

DrMom wrote:

My shita is not to pay taxes. Why must others force their shita on me? If YOU want to pay taxes, gezunterheit, but I'm not giving up my legally earned cash to pay for services for other people.
Waa! I am persecuted!

Like times infinity

Learning ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:07 am

Didn't read the whole thread. I live in the us. Just wondering. Israel is the biggest center of yeshivos. We all send our girls and boys to learn tora there after high school. What will happen if all this Israeli boys will be in the armi? What will happen to these big important yeshivos? Are they planning to draft the boys to the "real" army or just make them do computer and office stuff? And what about the girls?

↑ Learning ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:11 am

anon for this wrote:

I'm confused. Would someone who's been drafted into the Israeli army be prohibited from emigrating? If not, what does the sign mean?

Maybe they mean if you bother us. Just let us see you bothering us and force us to go to the army and than you will give us a reason to run away to the United States.

ROFL ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:13 am

I am in the us , on the videos streaming you see a lot of people milling around and lots of yelling. Did not see or hear tehlim or davening. And maybe those who don't believe in medinat eretz yisrael should leave , like blue rose posted , if that was a real sign at the rally, then the man holding it should make his way to the airport and get out. This was not a rally for davening for achdut it was an anti govt rally.

naturalmom5

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 11:22 am

Sanguine wrote:

A plan that could work for Chareidim (if they were interested). My nephew learned at merkaz Harav (this is my nephew with very long pais). They're not a hesder Yeshiva. They have a different set up with the army. He learned for 7 years and then went for half a year to the army. Because he already had one baby then, he even came home every Shabbat. Do all the chareidi boys sit more than 7 years just learning? That might be nice, but I don't believe they do. He now has 3 1/2 kids. He's very chardal. He works, learns Torah, and does miluim every year. He would have been happy to continue learning Torah forever but his family has to eat. The state isn't supporting his family. That's his responsibility. He protects Jews in Israel. He learns Torah when he can. He had his 7 years of just learning Torah (on top of Yeshiva HS). Torah is his life but he has to take care of the other things too.

How do you have 1/2 a child ?? Question