Million Man Atzeres

↑ Marion ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:33 am

RutiS wrote:

Quote:

hakarathatov for the full time Torah learners? If one does not believe that that way of living is correct, then why would they give hakarathatov hatov? And yes, I really did say that. In years gone by, only a select few select talmidim that were amazing talmidim learned full time.

we dont need the army to survive, Hashem isnt small and can do nes chanuka (where a small amount of talmidei chachamim won a huge, well experienced army) again if necessary. that is something that any jew should realize.

and, we are not living in years gone by. TODAY the fact is many families want their husbands to learn torah, and we have the ability to learn in peace because we dont need to do the agricultural etc hard work of'years gone by'. in todays society the women offer to take on the burden of parna$$a so their husbands can learn all day. and trust me those who are not able to sit and learn all day DONT.

Really? We don't need to do our physical hishtadlut? If the air raid siren went off and I decided to stay in the park with my young children because I'm sitting there saying tehillim and, G-d forbid, a rocket landed in the park and hurt my children...would you tell me it must be ratzon Hashem because all we need are tehillim or would you whisper and wonder why the HECK I didn't run for my safe room 10m away from where I was standing at the time? REALLY?

In today's society women take on the burden of parnassa for several reasons. One might be to allow her husband to sit and learn Torah. Another might be because they can't survive on only his salary. BUT the ketubah still places the burden of parnassa on the husband. The fact that it has become socially acceptable for the woman to "waive" this requirement doesn't mean that one MUST. Although there are certainly social circles where a girl who doesn't want this is considered second rate goods...which I don't understand from a purely halachic perspective.

↑ curlgirl

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:40 am

I honestly don't know many men who served in non-combat capacities in the army, but I can appreciate your point, M in Israel. It is a fact that many DL men go into combat units and that's not representative of Israeli society in general.

Your posts are sensible and informative. While I might not agree with you on everything I can see where you stand and respect it.

My responses on this thread were prompted by the attitude of RutiS and those posting similar things, holier-than-thou, condescending and contradicting. And seemingly being quoted with no real thought on the part of the poster.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:47 am

Thank you, curlgirl. I think this is a very complex topic, with a lot of hyperbole on both sides of what is obviously a very emotional issue. And I agree that the DL community is generally NOT reflective of all Israeli society when in comes to the IDF -- they are generally among the best soldiers and have unusually high rates of participation in elite and combat units. Probably because they are the only true ideological Zionists left. Unfortunately large numbers of the non-religious Zionists have not been able to transmit that Zionism to the next generation.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:49 am

m in Israel wrote:

First of all, the army DOESN'T need them, in the sense that the percentage of people willing to sit and learn full time, even when Tal was in full effect was much less than those willing to go to the army. So assuming you agree that we need BOTH hishtadlus and the Koach of Limud Hatorah, then it makes sense to allow it to be self selecting -- those who are ready and willing to protect us through Torah can do that, and those who either can't/ won't learn, or those follow those poskim who hold that protecting Israel today is a milchemes mitzva will do the hishtadlus part. As Sanguine and I both pointed out (despite being on opposing ends of this ideologically), there were many DL individuals who learned intensely for many years under Tal as well as the Chareidim.

As far as the "they don't want to risk their lives" line goes, you are aware, I hope, that all combat and elite units in the IDF are VOLUNTEER. No one risks their lives unless they sign up for it (and we owe tremendous Hakaras Hatov to those brave volunteers who do sign up for that.) But the overall draft issue is not one of risking your life vs. not risking your life. The vast majority of soldiers are working in non-combat units. We need them, too -- just as we need the Lomdei Torah -- but to say that all of those drafted are risking their lives while those learning Torah get to "sit in the air conditioned Beis Medrash and learn" is just parroting the same divisive cliches we hear from the anti-frum media.

And I find it interesting that you are deciding whose service you "value more", and claiming that anyone who doesn't share your valuation has a major problem. Avrohom Avinu determined after the war of the 4 kings/ 5 kings that those who stayed behind with the supplies were entitled to equal share of the spoils of war as those who "risked their lives fighting". An army needs ALL of its parts. I have tremendous appreciation for those guarding the Gaza border -- but I also appreciate those learning Torah and protecting us that way.

Did Avraham give those who were not in his army, who did not take part in the military effort at all, an equal part too? Because those men who are sitting and learning today are part of the defense effort in their own eyes only. They are not part of the army in any way. Mainstream Israeli society (and law) views them as having opted out and while Torah study may be appreciated by some as important in its own right, learning is not considered part of the defense effort. Don't expect people who do not share your belief system to value what you regard as a defense contribution but to them may represent no more that magical thinking.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:52 am

chaiz wrote:

How are you to decide what can or cannot be done on Chol Hamoed?

I decide according to halacha. If I don't know the halacha, I ask a rav or consult a sefer on the topic.

Quote:

And I have news for you: there are many many frum people who work on Chol Hamoed. Do you go to the pizza store on Chol Hamoed Sukkos? Do go on tiyulim on Chol Hamoed? Do ride the bus on Chol Hamoed? I am not saying one should go to work on Chol Hamoed, but to bring that into the equation is a bit silly and you just lose credibility.

It seems you don't know the halachos of chol hamoed. There is work that is allowed and work that is assur. Some of the frum people who work on chol hamoed are allowed to al pi halacha (because they would otherwise lose their job or because it's tzorech hamoed). Because writing that someone opens a pizza store (tzorech hamoed) and equating it with repairing parts in the army which could have been done a week before, just shows you have not learned the halachas. So I think it's you who is losing her credibility.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 6:58 am

etky wrote:

I wrote very clearly earlier on that I am addressing the point being raised with regard to Hishtadlus, and responding on the assumption that those bringing up the idea of Hishtadlus are agreeing that BOTH Torah and hishtadlus are necessary. Obviously most of Israeli society would unfortunately not view it that way, and I am not addressing public policy per se, now -- just the other frum women on this thread who want to understand the Chareidi belief system.

(I already posted on page 1 my personal opinion vis a vis public policy -- that the best move for the country is to switch to a professional army model rather than the current citizen army model)

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:00 am

shalhevet wrote:

I do know the halachos. You are stating that it could have been done before. You are not in the situation and you are not the posek for you to decide. And my point is that many businesses are open on Chol Hamoed and I can say there is no reason for them to be open. But no one seems to think otherwise. B&H is unique in that a frum store is closed for 8 or 9 days straight. But most Jewish businesses are not. From my understanding the one I work for is open and no one seems to have any problem. Either because then it is easy to be dan l'kaf zechus or because we assume it is necessary.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:01 am

I just received this email.

http://campaign.xpost.co.il/in.....6fc54

For those who don't understand Hebrew, it is clear that it is sent by a dati leumi organization. It supports the State and the army.

And it calls on its followers to join the Atzeret today. Please do not believe the DL posters here who claim to be speaking for their groups (and say themselves they haven't asked their OWN rabbanim) that the DL is not attending the atzeret, because it is.

Help! How do I post the picture (you can see it by clicking on the link)

Last edited by shalhevet on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:01 am

Sanguine wrote:

Quote:

LOL - Love the story. Laughing Laughing
The army is extremely respectful of datiim as long as they're not taking advantage. There can be people there who are anti-dati, but that can be anywhere. There can be dati people who are anti chilonim. The army is the best place for Achdut in Am Yisrael. We're all on the same side because we're all Jews.

chaiz wrote:

Do you believe it really happened? (Not sure how to do the double quote)

It could have happened. But that doesn't mean anything. Wars are started cause one jerk (who's in power) says something stupid. That's why I think the story is funny. Like it's proving a point. One jerk said something stupid.

RutiS wrote:

Sorry - I don't rely on miracles when my sons are the chayalim. I believe in davening for Hashem's help but I don't think we're at the level of going to war with only our emuna. How many years ago was nes Chanuka?? Why were there chayalim in the times of the Neviim? Are you at that level?

cinnamon wrote:

It's hard to say that the army is respectful of datiim...

Maybe I've been lucky but I've found the army respectful of datiim that are respectful of the army.

there are plenty of dati mifkadim and Kzinim. They're certainly respectful of datiim. Running an army isn't like running a Yeshiva. Discipline is extremely important. They can't make exceptions for every one. The Israeli army is the best army. It has to have rules. Not every soldier understands every decision. In your private life You can decide what must be done on Shabbat but in the army you can't decide. The army has a rabbanut.

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:03 am

m in Israel wrote:

I already posted on page 1 my personal opinion vis a vis public policy -- that the best move for the country is to switch to a professional army model rather than the current citizen army model

I have seen this idea raised more than once. Though, do you really think that is feasible? If it is, what is stopping the leaders from implementing it? I am sure there are people in government/politics who are not in it just for themselves. I am thinking that the socialism thread of society is still quite strong here, but not sure that is the answer.

Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:23 am

Gmara says we need both learners and fighters, and then when needed even learners need to fight.
Gmara also speaks of a halachic army... BH it's not like it's not at all, but there are still big problems for a boy coming from a yeshivish or charedi, especially Israeli yeshivish or charedi background. I'm told the needed changes are very difficult, so it may be easier to leave them out.

I also don't like the idea of a not professional army (people who CHOSE it). For so many reasons... but I don't know if it's feasible yet.

I have friends (mostly non Jews, a few Jews) who are army wives, here in France. I feel bad for them but it's a chosen path, at least on the guy side... my cousin's husband was removed from their home while she was with a tiny kid and pregnant. We were all beside ourselves for her Sad

(granted the situation was bad at the time). I also do know of yeshivish bochurim who can't come back to israel (parents sent them away) or a couple even who were arrested... this is not possible..... if it was in any other modern country the people would make a revolution!!

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:35 am

Marion wrote:

Point is, if in a milchemet mitzvah even learners need to fight then it stands to reason that AT SOME POINT BEFORE THAT they need to learn the techniques. Can you imagine if some rav somewhere suddenly decided that yes, even from the charedi perspective, it really was a milchemet mitzvah and these guys showed up? They'd shoot off their own toes or those of their fellow chayalim! Big help...

Yes. This is a big problem. Also one of the reasons I'm for a professional army.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:40 am

chaiz wrote:

There are many military experts and officers who not only believe it is possible but that it is the better road both financially and militarily. The main reasons it is not likely to happen is, as you say the socialistic ideology. The army here is not only intended to defend the country but also to mold people into "Israelis". There is a lot that goes into it, and I am short on time now, but the point is that army service is a "melting pot" of sorts (Or at least is intended to be so -- WADR to Sanguines's very positive experiences, there is still a tremendous amount of elitism and discrimination within the army.) and many of the leaders believe that this is important in maintaining Zionism and an Israeli identity. (Of course practically this has not been so successful. With the exception of the religious DL community, most Israelis are not particularly Zionistic, despite army service. ) Army service is a form of social engineering, and it would take a huge shift in mindset for this idea to gain traction. This is actually one of the points that Chareidi leaders keep bringing up. This is not just about fighting or not fighting -- it is about how the whole army "experience" fits with a Chareidi lifestyle.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:48 am

Yes m in Israel I agree (I personally have issues with this part though I am pro patriotism and detest how it's dying in Europe- positive patriotism I mean).

I do notice a number of my not religious cousins resent or even try to avoid the army including some who "love Israel" as a patriotic thing, would never live elsewhere...

My uncle (not religious, in Israel since the 70s) says the army and the youth groups are both ways to mold into Israelis and teach grow up, survival skills. There are also more and more guys who get acquainted with religion in the army, though.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 7:57 am

m in Israel wrote:

And I agree that the DL community is generally NOT reflective of all Israeli society when in comes to the IDF -- they are generally among the best soldiers and have unusually high rates of participation in elite and combat units. Probably because they are the only true ideological Zionists left.

Love this - And I think the more dati boys there are in the army, the more the army will work with needs of datiim. The army is a place where kids who are dati and chilonim learn to respect each other.

m in Israel wrote:

-- that the best move for the country is to switch to a professional army model rather than the current citizen army model)

I don't agree with this plan at all. Israel has the strongest army because of the deep down commitment of its soldiers. We're not like the US army that fights wars around the world. Our boys are defending their own family and homes. No professional army can mimic boys that fight for their own land.
And - The army gives the country its character. 18 year olds aren't running to Ivy league schools so they can make the big bucks. 18 year olds mature quickly from high school wildness when they take on such a large responsibility to their nation. They learn quickly to give and not take. It's an amazing change in kids.

I don't want to do away with the army, but I do think 2 years would be enough

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:00 am

Ruchel wrote:

But they'll be better trained and IYH avoid any situation where civilians will be needed, which frankly I think is the ideal.

Professional armies are called "professional" because the people in them are making a profession out of being soldiers. Not "professional" as opposed to "amateur." The training is no different.

When you say "civilians" do you mean people who aren't trained? or are you including fully trained ex-soldiers? If it's the former - I would assume that the more people a country has who are trained for combat, the less chance there is that any person who isn't trained for combat will be called to fight.