Million Man Atzeres

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Million Man Atzeres

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Sanguine ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:17 pm

Can't believe I missed this whole discussion (M in Israel didn't sleep all night Very Happy

) - I shut my computer at 11:00... OK - now I'm here

Wanted to add a point. Not every boy can sit in Yeshiva and learn 24/7. Look at the forum about kids with ADHD. They overcame it after HS? My oldest son went to Yeshiva for 2 years and then the army for 3. He never planned hesder but he was actually in a hesder Yeshiva so I asked him why he doesn't just stick with the hesder program and do just 18 months of army (believe it or not, I'm very proud of my chayalim but no mother wants their children in the army), he said, honestly, he doesn't see himself sitting in Yeshiva another year and a half so he has no reason not to do his full army service. Two years later he told me that, there were 2 boys in that Hesder Yeshiva that returned for that last year and a half but weren't really learning - The Rosh Yeshiva told them that they're excused from half the army service in order to learn torah which they're not doing and if they don't get back to the army he will call the army and turn them in his self. He's the Rosh Yeshiva. He strongly believes in Limud Torah but he also believes in a commitment of the Jewish people to Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.

Now my question. What really happens with Chareidi boys who aren't the sit down and learn type? Walk on the streets of Bnei Brak any day and you will see bochurim racing back and forth. Go into any Yeshiva and you will find Bochurim in the halls, hanging out in the kitchen, napping...

I have nephews who learned in Yeshiva for 5 or even 7 years before entering the army for a shortened amount of time. These were boys who were serious learners - I guess they're chardal - They have the long pais and everything). They slowed their lives a lot with years of Torah. But they didn't forget their commitment to Am Yisrael

My second son has ADD/LD. He went to an ADD Hs (got his bogrut) and then he wanted a chance to learn in Yeshiva with all his friends. Well, we weren't surprised that his ADD didn't go away but he sat and leaned for that year as best as he could. but it would have been totally dishonest of him to stay in Yeshiva learning and learning instead of going to the army.

So now my question. What really happens with Chareidi boys who aren't the sit down and learn type?

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:30 pm

The giants of Torah are the same as in any other field.
There are recognized experts in Medicine, Law, Commerce ect.....
They get that recognition not because of the fact they are just "Doctor" or "Lawye"r so and so.
Rather it is largley merit based.

And the local GP wil usually admit they are not on the level of the experts in the field.

The Gedolei Yisroel are those who have dedicated their entire lives to studying and teaching Torah.
Those who have reached a point where everybody, even Rabbonim underneath them, even thier peers recognize that in every aspect that is needed to make one a "Godol B'Yisroel" they are far and away ahead.

Recently (rather currently) my DH and myself are having to deal with a painful issue, we ch"v may not be able to have more children. My DH called up a respected Godol who he is close to asking for chizuk.

The Godol ansewered. B"h I have never had to deal with this. Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita and Rav Aaron Leib Shteinmann shlita are the leaders of our generation. All problems wind up on thier doorstep. They deal with every issue. Go them yourself or send someone in to them and they will know what to tell you.

There is no one alive today that will make the arguement with a straight face that there is anyone approaching the Gedolei Yisroel shlita who have called for this Atzeres in,

Wide ranging knowledge of the entirety of Torah.
In understanding of Torah.
In Kedusha.
In Tahara.
In Mesroah.

Everyone knows who they are.
And it's for that reason that many of the leading Dati Leumi Rabbonim (I.e Rabbi Eliyahu, Rabbi Aviner) have stated they will be attending the Atzeres.

And the 10% of the chilonim causing this tragic rift do fail to understand us.

They fail to understand the message that b"h hundreds of thousands of Yidden will be sending tomorrow.

Our leaders are not the NYT nor are they the Prime Minister nor the Supreme Court. Nor are they "rabbis" who know nothing and have learnt nothing compared to the Giants they have the chutzpah to consider themselves equals with.

Our leaders are the Gedolei Yisroel.

Mipiehem Unu Chuyim U'Memayhem Unu Shosim.

They tell us what is right and what is wrong.

They lead us.

We do not lead them.

And even if they will punish us for it by taking awya the very bread from our mouths.

Even if they will take away our abity earn a living with dignity.

They will not break us.

Becasue the Torah has always won and will always win.

ora_43 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:34 pm

I'm not going. To be honest, even if it were a protest for a cause I believed in, in my city, I wouldn't be going for various practical reasons.

But in this case I wouldn't go even if there were no practical reasons, because I highly doubt it's going to be a "we get where the rest of you are coming from re: enlistment, but we're against criminal sanctions" protest. It will be an anti-enlistment rally. Possibly complete with declarations that the government is persecuting Torah students just like (name famous enemy of the Jewish people here). And that's not a cause I agree with.

ChanaParnes

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:35 pm

This is going to be a historical event to help save the Torah, the soul of the Jewish nation.
I'm personally very excited.

shevi82 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:39 pm

This is what I heard from Rav Neugershal:
There is a story told of Rav Aryeh Levine who was walking on shabbos and passed by two people who were calling out to cars driving by "Shabbos, Shabbos!" he went and joined them and called out with them Shabbos. People approached him and said Reb Aryeh , this so not like you , to stand here and yell. Reb Aryeh answered them "since I passed here and heard these men calling out Shabbos I must join them otherwise I am on the other side."
Today we are calling out Torah! And anyone who does not join is on the other side.

How could a Jewish country be the only place in the world that will throw people into jail for learning torah?! To me this is mind boggling. My dh and 11 year old son will be there iy"h.
Btw-My family is charedi and I have a brother who could not sit in yeshiva and served a full 3 years in the army. He will also be there today.

abound ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:43 pm

I am going. It is a painful kind of going, I am sad about the rift in am yisroel, I am torn apart by the fact that there may be even one person who lost someone fighting for the army who will think we are delegitimizing his or her pain. You have no idea how hard it is to think that people do not get why we are doing this.

This is a PSA: Most people who are going to the Atzeres Tefilah are not against the army. They are against criminal sanctions and forced conscription of people learning Torah who refuse to go to the army. I am against the problems that are being caused to the Hesder Yeshivos (which I think are amazing).
I am going to pray for the rights of all kinds of Jews to serve G-d in the way they think is right, and not the way Bennet and Lapid think it is right. there are many ways to come close to G-d, and those 2 definitely don't have the rights to decide for everyone.
I hope that people who serve this country proudly realize that we are not against them, we thank them and appreciate it. I am feel bad that it has come to this, but I go proudly in the name of G-d.

mamaleh

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:44 pm

I have one question for those who are saying they won't/wouldn't be there for ideological reasons. What did your Rav say when you asked him?
If you asked your Rav and he told you not to go, then noone can argue with you. If however you didn't even ask, then how do you know you are doing the right thing? I respect anyone who follows their Rav. I do not respect anyone who thinks they know better than the Gedolei Umanhigei Klal Yisroel nor do I think they deserve anyone else's respect.
So if you've asked your Rav and he has told you not to go then please just state that, so we can stop arguing.

↑ abound ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:45 pm

ChanaParnes wrote:

This is going to be a historical event to help save the Torah, the soul of the Jewish nation.
I'm personally very excited.

I agree with the above, but it is a heartbreaking kind of feeling, I am going but it hurts that Am Yisroel is not in unity. It hurts that the problems being caused to people that want nothing more than to serve Hashem is being caused by our very own.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:50 pm

ora_43 wrote:

There will be no speeches or declarations.

Jews are gathering together to daven mincha, say tehillim, pray for rain, say selichos, and be mekabel ol malchus Shamayim (I heard the program yesterday).

I also can't go for practical reasons, but I will be, b"n, saying everything along with them. (I assume there will be live broadcasts on Radio Kol Chai www.93fm.co.il and Radio Kol berama.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:05 am

shevi82 wrote:

How could a Jewish country be the only place in the world that will throw people into jail for learning torah?! To me this is mind boggling.

Because the Jewish state is the only country where Torah study and army service might conceivably collide. Every other country with mandatory enlistment has a teeny tiny percentage of citizens who refuse to join the army because they think full-time Torah study is more important. If that.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:06 am

shalhevet wrote:

There will be no speeches or declarations.

Jews are gathering together to daven mincha, say tehillim, pray for rain, say selichos, and be mekabel ol malchus Shamayim (I heard the program yesterday).

OK. That somewhat changes my response, but I think I still wouldn't go due to concern it would be perceived as support for non-enlistment.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:21 am

What I don't understand... When I grew up in NY, no one ever knew a dati policeman. We paid the non jews to be our police.
Here in Israel there are no non jews (it's not easy to even find a "Shabbos [gentile]" when you need one).
Chareidim live here for the Kedusha. They want the zchut of learning Torah in Eretz Yisrael, of davening at the Kotel, Maarat HaMachpela, all kevrot Tzadikim... So how are they doing that without being massacred by the arabs? Hey - There's a Jewish army protecting all Jews. The army protects Chilonim, DL and Chareidim all equally.

And, according to Halacha, you're not allowed to ask another Jew to be Michalel Shabbat for you no matter how Chiloni they are. The army doesn't do any training on Shabbat. They're only Michalel Shabbat where necessary for security. So dati boys patrol the borders on Shabbat too. That's how you have your Shabbat Shalom. A day of rest and peace. What right do Chareidim have to benefit from the army's security without doing their share? How often do you go to the Kotel or Kever Rachel? You wouldn't be there if other people's sons weren't risking their lives to give you the opportunity.

You don't believe that this is Atchalta D'Geula? There shouldn't be a Jewish state time till Mashiach comes? That's fine with me. But stop asking my boys to provide you with security when you go to the kotel. Oh, and stop asking this terrible government to provide safe passage to Kever Rachel. Twice a year my husband and sons go to Yehoshua Ben Nuns kever. You can't go there regularly cause it's located in an Arab village. The army locks all the arabs in their home for the night so that Jews can have the zchut of going there.

I feel it's a real zchut to defend Eretz Yisrael. As long as we have our own country and army there will never be another Shoah. Do I agree with everything the gov't does? NO!! But they are not my enemy. I am happy to see achdut between ashkenazim and sfardi chareidim, but if their goal is to unite and fight other Jews, Jews who are providing them with access to Eretz Yisrael, I think they have to rethink their Jewish values

↑ shevi82 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:24 am

ora_43 wrote:

The law that was passed was out of hatred to Torah and its learners. There was no other motive.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:30 am

shevi82 wrote:

The law that was passed was out of hatred to Torah and its learners. There was no other motive.

The fact that you can state this as objective fact goes a long way towards illustrating why the vast majority of non-hareidi religious Jews won't take part in the demonstration.

I'm not going to argue that every person behind the law has pure motives, but it's much more complicated than what you're suggesting.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:34 am

amother wrote:

There is no one alive today that will make the arguement with a straight face that there is anyone approaching the Gedolei Yisroel shlita who have called for this Atzeres in,

Wide ranging knowledge of the entirety of Torah.
In understanding of Torah.
In Kedusha.
In Tahara.
In Mesroah.

Everyone knows who they are.

Think about that statement for a minute, in light of the fact that there are more non-hareidi orthodox Jews than hareidim.

Do you really think that people who aren't hareidi are telling themselves, "Well, I know that nobody alive today can compare to [Hareidi Gadol X] in terms of Torah knowledge, but I think I'll follow a different set of rabbis anyway"?

Quote:

And it's for that reason that many of the leading Dati Leumi Rabbonim (I.e Rabbi Eliyahu, Rabbi Aviner) have stated they will be attending the Atzeres.

There are also many who have said that people should not attend. Among them Rabbi Chaim Druckman, Rabbi Avichai Ronsky, and Rabbi Zalman Melamed (who says he will change his mind if/when hareidi leaders clarify that they recognize dati leumi rabbis as rabbis).

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:47 am

Sanguine wrote:

Can't believe I missed this whole discussion (M in Israel didn't sleep all night Very Happy

Yes, no rest for the weary Wink

!

But seriously, I think that this is the saddest result of this whole Supreme Court ruling (I.e. the one disqualifying Tal and starting this whole force for a new law). Because Chareidi enlistment in the past 10 years has actually been going DRAMATICALLY UP!! Many people were beginning to accept that fact that there are those not able to continue learning full time, for a number of factors, and since the only legal way into the economy in this country is via the army, there had slowly begun to be more acceptance of the option for certain individuals. (There is still a lot of hesitation due to the army environment, but Nachal Chareidi has been slowly changing for the better). Since this whole "let's force them all in" hullaballo has started, that number has absolutely reversed. Because as a previous poster hinted, when people feel attacked or at war, "you're either with us or against us" (with my apologies to "W"!). So the natural process that was leading to higher Chareidi enlistment has been halted, and now these boys who actually would have benefited from army service are back to square one.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:54 am

shalhevet wrote:

So you agree that people should be imprisoned for learning Torah? If they choose to do so instead of going to the army?

It isn't a protest - it's a rally to proclaim Hashem Echad! To make a kiddush Hashem to combat the massive chilul Hashem of the State of Israel being the only place in the world which (today) wants to imprison Jews for learning Torah. Surely every religious Jew believes in that?

Just as a by the way, do you believe Israeli Arabs should be drafted?

shalhevet, come on, your a smart woman, you know that they aren't being imprissoned because they are learning Torah. It's because they aredodging the draft.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:05 am

Just for those who are interested, this article outlines the program:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......html

Basically, mincha, tehilim, tefila for rain and selichos, and Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. There are NO SPEECHES scheduled at all. There have also been repeated reminders from the gedolim behind this gathering that this is NOT a protest and no one should behave as such.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:07 am

[removed] Shas would join any othe political party if It would get them into the government and get them more money for their Yeshivot. They're willing to bring down the Jewish Government since they have absolutely no allegiance to Am Yisrael. They consider DL and certainly chilonim to be equal to go-yim.

Why are chareidi ashkenazim and sfardim at war with each other? (look at the elections in Beit Shemesh). DL has absolutely no hatred like that. Maybe chareidim NEED to join the army and understand what it means to be part of Am Yisrael. Chiloni, dati, Yeshivish, Chardal, Israelis, Americans, French, Ethiopian, Morracan, Teimanim... Become one big army fighting to defend all of Am Yisrael. We are all Jews. No one is more Jewish than the next.

Does the army need the Chareidim? You my may say NO - hey,things are running fine without us. Well the army doesn't need Chareidim who don't understand the pride and commitment soldiers have defending the Jewish nation. But if the chareidim would stop fighting other Jews, the army would come up with an accetable program and all this Sinat Chinam could stop. Maybe it's not The Chareidim's faulhe Chilonim hate them as much as they hate them. So here's the chareidim's chance to bring Mashiach. Make the step to stop this sinat chinam. Bring Achdut to all Jews (not only chareidim)

milkshake

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:08 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

shalhevet, come on, your a smart woman, you know that they aren't being imprissoned because they are learning Torah. It's because they aredodging the draft.

No it's because they are dodging the draft TO LEARN TORAH. How long are you living in this country for? Do you really not understand the dynamics involved??

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