Million Man Atzeres

↑ Ariella28 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:09 am

Woah!! I didnt mean to get such a debate going! I was simply asking a question... I wanted to hear if women are going...just like I asked my friends and neighbours if they are going!! s1 wrote I shouldve put it in another section?! I tried to apply, (not to chareidi, I didnt know there was one) but havent recieved a reply, can s1 help me maybe? I'm sorry if it became too heated up, I really was being innocent!

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:13 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Given that there is room for debate with such a confusing and hot topic, this is why we have Gedolei Torah to pave our path. And our Gedolim have clearly called on us to stand up for Torah in this case.

The future of the State of Israel is very precarious at this time. Actually jailing yeshiva bachurim for learning Torah is unprecedented, and just one step in the process of completely secularizing Israel, chas veshalom.

Those with a middle view really need to decide who they stand with more. Standing on either side at this time is a big statement. So don't go to the prayer rally if it's not your thing, but think carefully about opposing its intention, which is: Limud Torah should not be a crime in the Jewish State.

the gedolim that you are talking about are not every frum Jews gedolim. You have to realize that isramom, no?
And I don't see myself, for example, as having a middle view. I believe that all able bodied men/boys should be going into the army. That's it.

tigerwife ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:15 am

Ariella28 wrote:

Lol, that exactly what I was thinking when I read your OP and then the clashing posts (that were so obviously going to follow, sorry). I think you might have gotten a few non-controversial responses, if you'd care to go through it.

I was wondering if I should go as well. I only heard about it on Shabbos. At first I thought it was another protest, so I didn't think much of it. From hearing about the program, though, it sounds more like a kinus- style gathering, so why not join thousands of Jews davening together?

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:19 am

milkshake wrote:

No it's because they are dodging the draft TO LEARN TORAH. How long are you living in this country for? Do you really not understand the dynamics involved??

how long have YOU been living in this country? I understand this completely. As Marion said secular draft dodgers also are imprisoned.
I understand the dynamics just fine.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:19 am

milkshake wrote:

No it's because they are dodging the draft TO LEARN TORAH. How long are you living in this country for? Do you really not understand the dynamics involved??

Oh, so if they are dodging the draft for any other reason they're left alone and not imprisoned. Legal sanctions are taken only against the ones learning Torah because the evil govt. (feel free to compare with the soneh yisrael of your choice) wants to stamp out Torah in Israel. Got it.

↑ Ariella28 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:22 am

tigerwife wrote:

Yes I heard that they are stressing quite clearly that it is not to be a protest, rather a teffila, e1 coming together to pray. A it like the purim story where they all fasted and davened for salvation! I will be able to see the men from my window, so I will watch from my apartment and say tehillim then.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:24 am

Isramom8 wrote:

This is exactly what I'm saying to Imamother friends - be very careful about separating yourself at this time by saying things like "your gedolim" and publicly assuming a nefarious agenda. That's what the chilonim represent. (Not all though. Many have a lot of respect. )

isramom, "your gedolim" are not my gedolim, so it does make a big difference.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:25 am

Ariella28 wrote:

Yes, like the Purim story. And guess who's being cast in the role of Haman/Amalek?
So much for 'achdus'.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:29 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

shalhevet, come on, your a smart woman, you know that they aren't being imprissoned because they are learning Torah. It's because they aredodging the draft.

Really, shabbat!

They are making this law to take the lomdei Torah out of the beis midrash. This isn't a group of Jews who landed in a Western country where there were already draft laws enacted and didn't want to enlist because they'd rather learn.

The whole intent of this law is to take the lomdei Torah away from their gemorras and throw them into the melting pot of the State of Israel! It has been stated dozens of times that they want the chareidim to become part of secular society, especially since the army/ national service/ joining the workforce are often used interchangeably or in the same breath.

This atzeret is not just about the army.

It is about whether a Jew is going to listen first to Torah or the laws of the State of Israel. And everyone knows that. Even Lapid mentioned that in his first speech as an MK - that he is going to teach people to put the law of the land before their faith.

It is like Eliyahu on Har HaCarmel - are you with Hashem or with the Ba'al?

And many, many rabbanim from the DL community recognize this and have declared they are coming.

This is not about politics. It is about declaring that we are with Hashem and His Torah. And that a Jewish State is bankrupt if it wants people to have its laws override ratzon Hashem.

↑ Ariella28 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:30 am

etky wrote:

Yes, like the Purim story. And guess who's being cast in the role of Haman/Amalek?
So much for 'achdus'.

No no no, u got it wrong, I was not saying that at all! All I was saying is that all Yidden to get together and pray. A teffila has so much more pwer when there is such a big group of ppl. They are davening for rain for many things, no role of amalek. Gosh its hard to jus say things on the internet, e1 gets the wrong end of the stick!! Im really not so politically involved here, I live here, but im not israeli and I dont plan on living here for good...another year or so and I'm back in England!!

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:35 am

A plan that could work for Chareidim (if they were interested). My nephew learned at merkaz Harav (this is my nephew with very long pais). They're not a hesder Yeshiva. They have a different set up with the army. He learned for 7 years and then went for half a year to the army. Because he already had one baby then, he even came home every Shabbat. Do all the chareidi boys sit more than 7 years just learning? That might be nice, but I don't believe they do. He now has 3 1/2 kids. He's very chardal. He works, learns Torah, and does miluim every year. He would have been happy to continue learning Torah forever but his family has to eat. The state isn't supporting his family. That's his responsibility. He protects Jews in Israel. He learns Torah when he can. He had his 7 years of just learning Torah (on top of Yeshiva HS). Torah is his life but he has to take care of the other things too.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:35 am

mamaleh wrote:

I have one question for those who are saying they won't/wouldn't be there for ideological reasons. What did your Rav say when you asked him?
If you asked your Rav and he told you not to go, then noone can argue with you. If however you didn't even ask, then how do you know you are doing the right thing? I respect anyone who follows their Rav. I do not respect anyone who thinks they know better than the Gedolei Umanhigei Klal Yisroel nor do I think they deserve anyone else's respect.
So if you've asked your Rav and he has told you not to go then please just state that, so we can stop arguing.

I, like MANY others, don't ask our rabbinic every decision in life, this being one of them.
But I can live with you not respecting me because of this, I don't know you in real life anyway.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:43 am

m in Israel wrote:

Just for those who are interested, this article outlines the program:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......html

Basically, mincha, tehilim, tefila for rain and selichos, and Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim. There are NO SPEECHES scheduled at all. There have also been repeated reminders from the gedolim behind this gathering that this is NOT a protest and no one should behave as such.

Oh please. One can daven at home or in shul. One need not shut down traffic and inconvenience the entire nation in order to merely daven.

This is not about davening and to misrepresent it as such is a total sheker.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:44 am

shalhevet wrote:

im not going to argue with you anymore. It's not worth my time, sorry. You have your view and I have mine. You aren't going to change and neither am I.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:47 am

DrMom wrote:

I can't agree with dr mom enough. Everyone who is going to this knows that, yes, it may be just davening and etc but, and there is a big but, the davening and such will be taking place in areas that are DAVKA taking place in ares that will be blocking traffic and stopping traffic. That may not be a protest, but it to make a statement,of course.

cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:52 am

Sanguine wrote:

Just wanted to say that many many chreidim do in fact enlist in the army after 4-5 years of marriage.
How else could they leave kollel and find a job?
But that is not enough for the government. They don't want people to learn for as long as possible and go to the army when they decide it is no longer possible for them to learn. The government wants to decide when people should close their gemara. That is what the big issue is.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:55 am

cinnamon wrote:

The govt decides that it wants 18-year-olds, not 25-year-olds, for a reason. You do realize that most non-haredim don't get the option to decide to serve when it is most convenient for them, right?

BTW, men don't have to close their gemara in the army, and you know it.

Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:55 am

Dear dear women who keep writing how much the army protects the israeli citizens, all of them including the charedim: thats right , thay do and we daven for our soldiers' safety daily.

We charedim, are also soldiers, chayalim bitzava Hashem!

our husbands and sons who are learning the Torah are holding a keeping the WHOLE WORLD up, not only the residents of the state of israel.

you speak of hakarat hatov to the soldiers, what about hakarat hatov to our Torah learners?
they in essence keep us all alive
על שלושה דברים העולם עומד, על תורה עבודה וגמילות חסדים

We are not fighting about the army here we are fighting for the ability to study TORAH in our land!!!!

and, we, of course will be attending בנערינו ובזקנינו!!

↑ Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:02 am

Quote:

DrMom wrote:
Oh please. One can daven at home or in shul. One need not shut down traffic and inconvenience the entire nation in order to merely daven.

This is not about davening and to misrepresent it as such is a total sheker.
I can't agree with dr mom enough. Everyone who is going to this knows that, yes, it may be just davening and etc but, and there is a big but, the davening and such will be taking place in areas that are DAVKA taking place in ares that will be blocking traffic and stopping traffic. That may not be a protest, but it to make a statement,of course.

there is a hiuge ma'ala in davening betzibur: as it says
דברי הגמרא בברכות בדף ח-"רבי אחא ברבי חנינא אמר, מהכא: (איוב ל"ו) הן אל כביר ולא ימאס, וכתיב: (תהלים נ"ה) פדה בשלום נפשי מקרב - לי כי ברבים היו עמדי. תניא נמי הכי, רבי נתן אומר: מנין שאין הקדוש ברוך הוא מואס בתפלתן של רבים, שנאמר: הן אל כביר ולא ימאס, וכתיב: פדה בשלום נפשי מקרב - לי וגו´".