Million Man Atzeres

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

Million Man Atzeres

1 2 3 13 14 15 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Ariella28 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 12:32 pm

Are you planning on going to the Atzeres? I'm not sure if I will be able to go cos with my kids it will be too hard. But I will try say Tehillim at that time! What about u?

shabbatiscoming ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 1:12 pm

You do realize that not every religious Jew is on the side of the protesters? I for one am not. I believe that every man should be drafted into the army and that full time torah learning does not exempt him from that role.
If you live in a country that has the draft, you must adhere to it. That is my opinion.
So, no, I will not be saying tehillim tomorrow afternoon. I will hope that nobody gets physically hurt at this demonstration, but thats about it.

freidasima ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 1:13 pm

Do you want to know how many frum Jews here will be saying tehilim that every Jewish able bodied man, frum or frei, will take on to both learn torah and go to the army as they do in Hesder?!

Duggie ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 1:21 pm

apparently the buses and streets will be majorly clogged. think R' Ovadia Yosef's funeral style. So no taxis or buses will be running.

But still, It probably will be a major event for them to remember and feel the achdus at that moment.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 1:23 pm

Duggie wrote:

Only after 1pm, not in the morning time.

Isramom8 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 1:31 pm

My kids' school is hiring buses, thereby allowing students in the upper grades (boys in 6th-8th, and girls in 7th-10th) to attend if they want to and their parents allow them to.

In a dozen years of operation the school has never participated in anything like this, but this seems to be an important exception.

I am going to try to go. I was told that there will be room for me on a bus. Two of my kids in the school want to go, and one doesn't, and it's all okay with my DH and me.

It is possible that one or more of our children will serve in the IDF. But we disagree that in Eretz Yisrael Torah study should be threatened with imprisonment.

shalhevet ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 2:33 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So you agree that people should be imprisoned for learning Torah? If they choose to do so instead of going to the army?

It isn't a protest - it's a rally to proclaim Hashem Echad! To make a kiddush Hashem to combat the massive chilul Hashem of the State of Israel being the only place in the world which (today) wants to imprison Jews for learning Torah. Surely every religious Jew believes in that?

Just as a by the way, do you believe Israeli Arabs should be drafted?

November

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 2:54 pm

Over shabbat, we heard a Rabbi of a dati L'eumi community where we were visiting explain from the bima why he will be going. He said that although he does not agree with the protesters, he feels that when part of am yisrael is hurting then he is hurting too. I thought it was a beautiful message.
Btw, my husband and son are going to the Atzeret. We need tefillah that Hashem will help us to find some solutions that everyone can be happy with and not have Jew against Jew. That's just my 2 cents.

m in Israel ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 3:59 pm

freidasima wrote:

Do you want to know how many frum Jews here will be saying tehilim that every Jewish able bodied man, frum or frei, will take on to both learn torah and go to the army as they do in Hesder?!

Halevai!!! Amen kein yehi ratzon. I'm not sure the Hesder model per se is best, but if every able bodied Jewish man wanted to learn Torah and our problem was that too many people wanted to learn and not enough wanted to fight that would truly be a HUGE Kiddush Hashem. Yes, there would have to be some sort of "toranut" of who learns when and who is involved in the physical hishtadlus when, but that would be a completely different issue. Unfortunately we do not have an army made up of only Lomdei Torah, and even more unfortunately, we have a very small percentage of people relatively speaking who are interested in learning Torah full time. The army doesn't need them to fight (or even truly want them -- just see how Ya'alon has been dragging his feet on the issue), but goodness knows we certainly need their Limud Torah.

You do know, of course, that the Shaked agreement is not making the Hesder crowd too happy, either.

My personal non-religious opinion on this is that Israel needs to join the rest of the modern world and transition to a professional army rather than a citizen one. Already the combat units and elite units are all volunteer, and a large number of people who are doing their time ONLY because of the draft (as opposed to those joining out of nationalistic or religious ideology) spend their time on completely non-essential jobs. Converting to a professional army is much more cost effective in a world where war is not about man-power as much as it is about skill and technology. But the powers that be are not interested in that model because the army is about a lot more than defending the country. It is about cultural assimilation and identity -- which is exactly what the gedolim are concerned about (in addition to the obvious issue of reducing Limud Torah).

As far as the OP's question, my husband is going with my two older boys (10 and 12)-- I was at the last "atzeres tefila in '99 and that Kabbalas Ol Malchus Shamayim with a few hundred thousand people was one of the most inspiring moments of my life. I want my boys to see that. I'll be home with the little ones, saying tehilim for Shalom here in Eretz Yisroel both from our enemies and amongst each other, and for a government that recognizes the importance of Torah in Am Yisroel.

sequoia ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 4:04 pm

My view as a non-Israeli does not matter, but yeah, I think every single able man should be drafted. Chareidim, Arab, everyone. As Eugene Kontorovich put it, it is part of the privilege of being an Israeli citizen.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 4:06 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Adhere to what, exactly? Do you mean one must adhere to the law? Because the crux of this discussion is what should the draft law say. If the law says that men over a certain age, or men with a certain number of kids, etc. are not included in the draft no one is "not adhering" to the draft by following those policies. Similarly, until Tal was disqualified, the law said that anyone learning full time was not included in the draft (and it applied to anyone, Chareidi or not, BTW). So it has nothing to do with following the policy of the country -- it has to do with determining what that policy should be. Obviously if this new proposal stands then those who don't answer the summons would be breaking the law -- and you can then debate if there is ever a time or place to break the law in order to try to change policy (civil disobedience, anyone?). But for now the concern is over setting the policy -- not what should be done afterwards.

BlueRose52 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 4:13 pm

shalhevet wrote:

So you agree that people should be imprisoned for learning Torah? If they choose to do so instead of going to the army?

Read http://www.rationalistjudaism.......html

Quote:

Nobody is being "sent to prison for learning Torah." They are being sent to prison for avoiding army service. They are not going to prison because of what they are doing with their time; they are going to prison because of what they aren't doing with their time. It's true that they are learning Torah while not being in the army, but it is inaccurate and inappropriately inflammatory to describe this as the reason for their going to prison.

↑ sequoia ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 4:18 pm

Exactly. It doesn't matter WHAT you're doing with your time. You're not doing what you should be -- that is the relevant point.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 4:21 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I actually sort of would agree with this. But it is hard to agree in today's context, because draft dodging in Israel is at an all time high (I am talking about among those who were obligated to go until now, not among those who were legally exempt due to learning full time). And there has been no effort whatsoever to track down and imprison the close to 50% of Tel Aviv youth for example, who avoid their army service. They may have trouble joining the legal job market without record of their service (another factor in the huge "under the table" economy in this country), but there certainly has been no attempt at criminal prosecution (except perhaps among those leaving the country to avoid service and then attempting to return). So it does seem as if what these individuals ARE doing with their time (learning Torah) is actually a reason for this threatened imprisonment.

And being that it is almost 2:30 in the morning, I am going to have to bow out of this conversation until tomorrow.

zaq

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 5:44 pm

Defense of Eretz Yisrael is milchemet mitzvah; no one is exept from that lefi halacha. It's only milchemet reshut that exempts men who recently built a house, betrothed a wife, planted a vineyard or are just plain chicken.

zohar

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 7:13 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You do realize that this thread was obviously not addressed to you. She is not asking if you think yeshiva bachurim should be drafted or not. She is asking those who feel or hold the same way as her, if they are going to attend or not.

↑ sequoia

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 7:16 pm

zohar wrote:

Free country. Anyone can comment anywhere. Otherwise she could have started this thread in the chareidi outlook section.

saw50st8 ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 7:20 pm

m in Israel wrote:

There is no reason there should be different penalties for different people in society.

However, there is a difference between an individual dodging the draft and most of an entire segment of society dodging a draft.

pause ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 7:27 pm

zaq wrote:

You do know the full halacha of that, right? Even kallah m'chupasa and chosson m'chadaro are not exempt from milchemes mitzvah. Just saying.

yogabird ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 7:31 pm

zaq wrote:

said who?

Page 1 of 15

1 2 3 13 14 15 Next