Million Man Atzeres

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Million Man Atzeres

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↑ pause ↓

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 10:32 pm

yogabird wrote:

said who?

It's actually a machlokes.

ETA: I am fairly certain that even according to those who do say it's milchemes mitzvah, it would not be applicable in today's days.

↑ yogabird

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 10:35 pm

pause wrote:

It's actually a machlokes.

ETA: I am fairly certain that even according to those who do say it's milchemes mitzvah, it would not be applicable in today's days.

This discussion is regarding defending EY today, not in the past, and not in general...

↑ pause

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:15 pm

yogabird wrote:

This discussion is regarding defending EY today, not in the past, and not in general...

I am aware.

And that's why I posted what I did in my first post in this discussion. If we're talking about what halacha is, it demands way more from us. I don't see anybody demanding chassanim and kallos to be drafted as per halacha. But, as you say, it's all theoretical anyway, because I highly doubt that these halachos apply today.

simhat_nisuyyin

Sat, Mar 01 2014, 11:17 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Similarly, until Tal was disqualified, the law said that anyone learning full time was not included in the draft (and it applied to anyone, Chareidi or not, BTW).

Patently untrue. Women learning full time receive/d no such privilege (let alone getting a state stipend). University students don't receive this privilege, either. And if one wants to suggest for some reason that it's a good thing for the state's law to limit the obligation to complete a mandatory national service only for the study of Torah and not for other subjects: thousands of Israelis study Torah in a university setting, and none of them received a p'tor for that either (and certainly no state stipend). Tal indeed extended special privileges only to the haredi community, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:45 am

zohar wrote:

You do realize that this thread was obviously not addressed to you. She is not asking if you think yeshiva bachurim should be drafted or not. She is asking those who feel or hold the same way as her, if they are going to attend or not.

You do realize that posting about this demonstration in any other context than asking about the traffic arrangements today constitutes a red flag on this forum.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:08 am

simhat_nisuyyin wrote:

I mean to say "anyone learning Torah full time." Other than that, I stand by my statement. Women are a non-issue because any woman claiming to be religious had/has an automatic p'tor in any case if she so choose, so whether or not she is learning Torah is not a factor. A university student who studied ONLY Torah in a university setting could also qualify under Tal -- the question was not the setting. In order to qualify you had to declare "toraso hu umnaso" -- your "profession" was Torah. I know many individual's from the DL camp who also got deferrals under Tal. Not everyone who identifies as DL goes to Hesder. In some circles it was quite common to get your diychui in order to learn in a very focused way for a number of years, and then do your military service after marriagea nd possibly a few years of Kollel. (They eventually did their service because either they believed they had a religious obligation to do so or they were no longer planning on learning full time.) And BTW you were not entitled to a p'tur -- only a diychui (? I'm terrible at transliteration) -- IOW a deferral, not an exemption. As soon as one was no longer full time learning Torah all the regular rules would apply.

So yes, the people who benefited the most from Tal were the Chareidim who have the highest percentage of full time Torah learners -- but they were not the only ones. And as far as this diychui being only for learning Torah and not for other subjects, well that was the point. Eve the non-religious (perhaps even anti-religious) founders of the State recognized that the study of Torah was essential to Jewish survival. And we know that this is true not just in a cultural sense but in a physical sense as well. Additionally, it is a practically universally accepted practice to make draft exemptions for religious students and clergy members. Even the U.S. had such a policy in place during its active draft.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:18 am

Given that there is room for debate with such a confusing and hot topic, this is why we have Gedolei Torah to pave our path. And our Gedolim have clearly called on us to stand up for Torah in this case.

The future of the State of Israel is very precarious at this time. Actually jailing yeshiva bachurim for learning Torah is unprecedented, and just one step in the process of completely secularizing Israel, chas veshalom.

Those with a middle view really need to decide who they stand with more. Standing on either side at this time is a big statement. So don't go to the prayer rally if it's not your thing, but think carefully about opposing its intention, which is: Limud Torah should not be a crime in the Jewish State.

Marion ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:29 am

Um, chiloni draft dodgers are most certainly imprisoned. Why on earth would you think otherwise? (I know a couple personally; one went so far as to do so intentionally when he couldn't find his way back to his base after his first leave; he knew they'd pick him up, he'd serve two weeks in the MP, and then they'd drive him back to base.)

DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:30 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Your gedolim have called on you to stand up for your sector of the community to receive $, not for "Torah."

Limud Torah is not a crime; stop with the histrionics. Thousands of hesder yeshiva students are learning Torah *and* serving in the IDF, thus rendering your arguments ridiculous. And everybody knows it.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:38 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

Read http://www.rationalistjudaism.......html
Quote:
Nobody is being "sent to prison for learning Torah." They are being sent to prison for avoiding army service. They are not going to prison because of what they are doing with their time; they are going to prison because of what they aren't doing with their time. It's true that they are learning Torah while not being in the army, but it is inaccurate and inappropriately inflammatory to describe this as the reason for their going to prison.

Very succinctly put.

↑ Isramom8 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:43 am

This is exactly what I'm saying to Imamother friends - be very careful about separating yourself at this time by saying things like "your gedolim" and publicly assuming a nefarious agenda. That's what the chilonim represent. (Not all though. Many have a lot of respect. )

chevi1 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:47 am

DrMom wrote:

You may associate yourself with a different sector, but please don't speak with such blatant disrespect. That is immature and uncalled for...
You sound like a little kid who sticks her fingers in her ears and refuses to discuss something maturely "and everybody knows it....."
no actually, not everybody. because those of us who do follow our gedolim disagree...

↑ chevi1 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:49 am

DrMom wrote:

What exactly are you referring to? What are you trying to say about our gedolim? Be more specific.... or don't if you'll think again about it...

out-of-towner ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:51 am

If I remember correctly, Ben Gurion founded the state with the premise that those who were learning would be able to learn. Why is now any different?

Honestly, I don't think that either side is going to ever see the other side's point in this (as in many other things...). So with that, I'm bowing out of this conversation!

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:52 am

Isramom8 wrote:

What exactly are you saying? That I have to "be careful" about not following the same gedolim you follow? Why exactly is that? I am not haredi and do not follow haredi gedolim. I would never have the gall to assume that a haredi person should follow my rav, so why do you think I should follow yours? And to say that if I do not follow haredi rabbanim I am like a chiloni person?

What an ridiculously inflated sense of self-importance you have. What chutzpah.

And it seems that you, not I, are the one who is suggesting that one sector separate itself from its fellow Jews.

↑ out-of-towner

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:53 am

DrMom wrote:

If there is no money, there cannot be Torah. America and CHU"L cannot support all of E"Y entirely!

amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:00 am

zaq wrote:

Defense of Eretz Yisrael is milchemet mitzvah; no one is exept from that lefi halacha. It's only milchemet reshut that exempts men who recently built a house, betrothed a wife, planted a vineyard or are just plain chicken.

Not when the army has female officers preventing even a DATI LEUMI battalion from davening .. so says the 20 year old boy friend of my cousin who is in the IDF at this moment!!!! When the army is run FULLY l'halacha then you have an argument but not when there is SO much going on there that is contrary to halacha. If you read the beginning of Sefer Yehoshua it is clearly stated that the jewish army will not be successful if they swerve from the Torah's ways.. yes there is hesder but that is not enough.. The religious need to be in control of the army and to ensure that NOBODY's neshama is damaged in ANY WAY shape or form.

Before the state even existed the CHAREIDIM of the Old Yishuv had their own army. Those who were able to serve did.. and those who didn't did other jobs.. and even those who did serve alternated so each would have time to learn Torah.. but everything was done according to halacha! unlike the IDF today..

I guarantee if the army was run l'halacha then the Chareidim would probably have NO issue with it.. but that is not the case.

↑ chevi1

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:01 am

DrMom wrote:

No, you definitely don't have to follow our gedolim (I am chareidi). But it would be appreciated if you would respect that there are people different from you, just like you expect us to respect your differences.
and I am assuming you are jewish which means we do believe in the same torah- so how can you speak so disrespectfully of great people who are learned in that torah and close to the same G-d we both believe in?
no one asked you to follow our gedolim, just like we don't follow yours. but a little bit of kavod respect would be in place. I can assure you I would accord the same due respect ot your rabbis

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:02 am

Marion wrote:

But why are Israeli Arabs exempt?? They are Israeli citizens and they should be obligated as well.. and the argument that they might not be loyal is not an argument. If you are a citizen then you have obligations.. but it seems that this argument is only used when it comes to Chareidim .. That is discriminatory and in violation of the freedom to worship as they please.. that is essential in a democratic country.

notshanarishona

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:05 am

Ariella28 wrote:

Are you planning on going to the Atzeres? I'm not sure if I will be able to go cos with my kids it will be too hard. But I will try say Tehillim at that time! What about u?

my husband is going. I dont think such crowds r a place for anyone with young children. I wonder if there will b a hookup. ?

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