Million Man Atzeres

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:54 am

November wrote:

We need tefillah that Hashem will help us to find some solutions that everyone can be happy with and not have Jew against Jew. That's just my 2 cents.

2 options:
1) professional army - best soldiers to be well paid who'll do it properly.
2) Torah army - main reason chareidim cannot step in there now.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:57 am

ora_43 wrote:

I don't think it's realistic to assume that the army could still count on all its "ideological" recruits. For one thing, even the ideological recruits mostly only enlist for as long as they are asked to. For another, if the army decides it doesn't need everyone, many people will stop perceiving army service as necessary.

In any case, the "plenty" of young men who believe in enlistment for ideological reasons are currently not the majority within the army, from what I've heard.

Policemen and firefighters - firefighters get paid very well. Policemen - WADR to those police officers who are highly dedicated, I'm not sure we should use the police force as an example of something the army could strive for.

For a professional army to be successful there needs to be reasonable salaries and incentives to join. I used firefighters and police as a general example -- I am not specifically talking about Israeli police. I am pointing out that it generally is possible to find people willing to do dangerous jobs, including military ones, with the right combination of idealistic factors and compensation. Bottom line is most armies in the developed world, including the U.S. and G.B. use professional armies with great success. And although the young men who believe in enlistment for idealogical reasons are no where near the majority within the army, they are the majority within combat units. And many non-combat jobs can easily be given to civilian contractors as well, if necessary.

Look, I didn't come up with this idea and I don't know all the ins and outs about how it would work. But it is done effectively in many places -- and it is clear that one of the main reasons it is not being discussed here in Israel is because of the social engineering component role that the army plays.

Teamster ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:58 am

Sanguine wrote:

I feel it's a real zchut to defend Eretz Yisrael. As long as we have our own country and army there will never be another Shoah.

OMG, I couldn't let this go without commenting on this. don't you know there's a God in this world? If He wants to bring another shoah, all the jewish soldiers in the world won't be able to stop Him.

that's not to say that I don't appreciate the IDF and have hakaras hatov to them. I do. A lot. I am very thankful to your son and his fellow soldiers for sacrificing so much to protect us. And I do believe they are doing a great mitzvah by defending the Land.

however, we can not forget that God is the One guiding the soldiers, and protecting them and us.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:00 am

m in Israel wrote:

Not likely. There are plenty of boys today who join for ideological reasons, not just because they have to. That wouldn't change, but practically, if it was a real viable "job" there are many who would consider it the same way people are interested in becoming policman or firefighters. There are those who hold it is a mitzvah, there are those who are nationalistic, there are those who will be interested in educational benefits or the like.

People sign Keva. Make a nice salary and great pension at 45. But how many would join to be the plain infantry soldier? Go home every third Shabbat (if they're lucky). Spend years in a tank? Not that many. Who joins the American army? People who can't do anything else. How many dati Jews do you know who sees it as a good opportunity? I would never push my kids to join the army if every other boy was out advancing their personal life (and if they tell me they can hire a better army - let them).
Policemen and firefighters live at home and work set hours. Jobniks may sleep at home and work set hours. But Kravi soldiers are constantly practicing. Are always moving bases based on the needs of the army. (are we being attacked from the North or the South today?) So till what age do you think someone is willing to live like that? And then what? They wasted those years while their peers went to university and got experience in jobs.
We don't have 300,000,000 people like America.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:05 am

June wrote:

I agree with this. We must do mitzvot to make ourselves worthy of the land we are defending.

I simply disagree with the premise (put forth by many here -- not by you, June) that certain sectors should be responsible for mitzvot, and others should be responsible for fighting. The two endeavors are not mutually exclusive, and can be done concurrently (case in point: The highly successful hesder programs).

Maya

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:08 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I'm sorry, someone who is on the internet but does not know that there are other Jews out there not like them? Not buying it at all.

Most of the people I know only read newspapers and listen to hotlines by their own kind, I.e. Chassidim, so they are never presented with opposing viewpoints or anything that the rest of the world does. That post is very believable to me. I know hundreds of people who are like that.

↑ cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:08 am

DrMom wrote:

Even if this were just a parve "prayer rally" (and please don't insult our intelligence by calling it that), I wouldn't participate because it is blocking traffic and inconveniencing others.

I find it sad that you are making this point. It is the same exact point people were making against those who protested the hitnatkut.

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:13 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

because of the reason for the rally.

The reason for the rally as Gedoilei Yisroel see it is that the IDF is a mokom tomey, a spiritual Times Square. Just about 2 weeks ago the IDF boasted "being the most gy-friendly army". And they decide themselves what's pikuach nefesh to desecrate Shabbos and Yom Tov. Is this a place where Torah Jews may enter? It's well known that even those who joined Nachal Chareidi many of them threw their kipas off as well as their yiddishkeit. This is why Gedoilei Yisroel are so adamantly against "the evil decree" of going to the army.

If they want Chareidi yeshiva students in the army, they have to make a good spiritual cleanup first and then get Chareidi Torah Jews to run it.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:16 am

cinnamon wrote:

I find it sad that you are making this point. It is the same exact point people were making against those who protested the hitnatkut.

You are talking in circles. It's not the same point at all.

If I'm protesting the hitnakdut, I'll protest the hitnakdut! I won't call it a neutral "prayer rally" and pretend there is no other reason behind it.

I simply ask that posters not insult our intelligence by denying the reason behind the rally.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:17 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I'm very glad I don't live in your bubble.
I know MANY MANY MANY young frum men who went through the army and came out just as frum still wearing their Kira and some even stronger than when they went in.

And as a few have said here, your gedolim Yisrael are not everyone's gedolim Yisrael. Mine are not telling me to go.

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:23 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So you should follow your gedolei yisroel and go go to the army and we'll follow our gedoilei yisroel and not go to the army. Why do your Rabbis have to force something down our throats when it's against our halacha and principles? If you want to go to the army, gezunterheit, go and come back safely, but we're not up to giving up 1 bochur to ch"v go off the derech or to be contaminated there. Why is it so hard for DL to understand our shita?

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:24 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

1. Please provide evidence that the IDF, specifically Nachal Chareidi, leads to soldiers dropping observance. Moreso than the baseline % of haredi becoming non-observant, that is.

2. I have never ever seen any sort of constructive suggestion from the haredi leadership for making the army a more suitable place for haredim. It's like the so-called "peace" negotiations with the Arabs. Compromises, frameworks, ideas, solutions, etc are always proposed from the Israeli side, and there is never any reciprocal effort on the part of the Arabs. Why? Because they don't really want peace. They want land. Similarly, the haredim don't see army service as a responsibility of theirs. That's for "other Jews" -- they cannot get their hands dirty with such matters. So they never propose any constructive ideas, just reasons why the other side's ideas are unacceptable. It's all excuses and obstructionist rhetoric.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:26 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

My shita is not to pay taxes. Why must others force their shita on me? If YOU want to pay taxes, gezunterheit, but I'm not giving up my legally earned cash to pay for services for other people.
Waa! I am persecuted!

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:27 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

If they want Chareidi yeshiva students in the army, they have to make a good spiritual cleanup first and then get Chareidi Torah Jews to run it.

What are you talking about? Chareidi torah Jews can be Chayalim, Mifakdim, Kzinim... All the way to the top. And then they can influence how the army is run. Right now, the army runs fine. They're job is to defend Jews from our enemies. Their job isn't to be the spiritual leaders of the Jews. But if chareidim join the army and learn the rope, they will move up to high places and make decisions too. Right now, the army doesn't cater to the chareidim haven't proven that they can be counted on to give to their country

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:31 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

its not my rabbinim who want the charedim in the army Rolling Eyes

it's the state that we live in who want it. Where are you getting that the DL rabbanim are asking for the charedim to go to the army.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:33 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

If they want Chareidi yeshiva students in the army, they have to make a good spiritual cleanup first and then get Chareidi Torah Jews to run it.

See this is an example of a proposal that is so absurd, it's obviously not meant seriously.

Do you honestly expect to be put in charge of an army without joining it? It's like saying you won't vote or pay taxes unless you get to be the Prime Minister and control the Knesset.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:45 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

If you want to go to the army, gezunterheit, go and come back safely, but we're not up to giving up 1 bochur to ch"v go off the derech or to be contaminated there. Why is it so hard for DL to understand our shita?

Do you think I want my sons to go to the army? Do you think it's easy for them? Do you think they come back more dati than they would have been with 3 more years of Yeshiva?

The people in Lakewood (or any other place) can hole themselves up away from American life. But this is Israel. It's a different reality. Everyone is a Jew. We all want to be here because it's our Promised Land. Eretz HaAvot. We wouldn't feel the same if Israel was in Uganda. We pray to the same G-d as you. W keep the same 613 Mitzvot. But we don't understand why the Chareidim think our sons are dispensable. At 18 they are also impressionable. So they take a few years off before entering the army to learn in Yeshiva and strengthen their Emuna. That's part of growing up.

You want Eretz Yisrael? Well how are you going to get it? Sitting in Yeshiva? hat's great as long as there are chayalim out there protecting this country. Maybe you should leave and come back with Mashiach. Then there won't be a problem of the Jewish country needing an army