Million Man Atzeres

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Million Man Atzeres

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↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:03 am

My daughter walked in the door at 2:00. She learns in Givat Washington (near Ashdod) - She tremps 2 hours each way. She was home very very early cause none of the teachers from Yerusalayim showed up.
Everything in Yerushalayim closed. The Knesset even closed at 1:00. The capital of our country is closed. Is today another snow day? I hope the country can afford it

↑ chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:05 am

Sanguine wrote:

We're not like the US army that fights wars around the world. Our boys are defending their own family and homes. No professional army can mimic boys that fight for their own land.
And - The army gives the country its character.

Being a professional army and fighting for our land and lives are not mutually exclusive. Those who join the army out of passion are doing it to fight for our land and not for someone else.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:06 am

The professional soldiers would still defend their home.

Frankly, if it was only about responsibility and there was no inkling of danger, I would say why not. In this case I don't think all the good things like maturing, learning skills... are worth the risks.

Also the Israelis don't marry as late as the Europeans and want more kids (bh). So if they start studying later, it's even harder.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:07 am

ora_43 wrote:

Professional armies are called "professional" because the people in them are making a profession out of being soldiers. Not "professional" as opposed to "amateur." The training is no different.

When you say "civilians" do you mean people who aren't trained? or are you including fully trained ex-soldiers? If it's the former - I would assume that the more people a country has who are trained for combat, the less chance there is that any person who isn't trained for combat will be called to fight.

I was thinking of everyone who wouldn't be in the army if the army professional.
Of course now there's a blur between who is truly only a civilian, or not...

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:08 am

I posted this once on Life In Israel but since the discussion is on the main forum
This is my son the Chayal

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:12 am

chaiz wrote:

Being a professional army and fighting for our land and lives are not mutually exclusive. Those who join the army out of passion are doing it to fight for our land and not for someone else.

There wouldn't be enough boys willing to be in the army just for money. They would have to higher mercenaries from around the world (Like Macabbi Tel Aviv)

↑ chaiz

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:16 am

Sanguine wrote:

There wouldn't be enough boys willing to be in the army just for money. They would have to higher mercenaries from around the world (Like Macabbi Tel Aviv)

But most people do not join willingly for money; they are joining for the cause.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:20 am

There would be those who would have joined anyway, those who were on the edge, those who don't really love it but want or need the money. I don't know if it's not enough. Other perks can be offered, like free or cheaper education maybe it's already the case.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:22 am

shalhevet wrote:

I just received this email.

http://campaign.xpost.co.il/in.....6fc54

For those who don't understand Hebrew, it is clear that it is sent by a dati leumi organization. It supports the State and the army.

And it calls on its followers to join the Atzeret today. Please do not believe the DL posters here who claim to be speaking for their groups (and say themselves they haven't asked their OWN rabbanim) that the DL is not attending the atzeret, because it is.

Help! How do I post the picture (you can see it by clicking on the link)

Um, just because you can find some DL organizations which support the protest doesn't mean that all DL support the protest, or even that the majority do.

I think you have some chutzpah telling DL posters what DL believe and do not believe on this topic.
Since you seem very concerned about what DL rabbanim think, I can tell you my rav is a decorated war hero. He does not agree with this protest at all.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:23 am

I can't cut and paste everyone, but just some general points:

As others have said, professional armies mean people are choosing this as a profession -- I.e. they are volunteers, not drafted. They will still be Israeli youth defending their country -- the same way now there are many volunteer units, the entire army would work that way. They would get better salaries then those in the army now, and many unessential departments that are just there to find work for all the "jobniks" would be closed down, with that money being put towards the real job of the army -- defense. Although overall there would be less individuals trained as soldiers, most soldiers would serve for more time, which means more experienced and better trained soldiers overall. Today's wars are not won by the number of soldiers -- it is about weapons and strategy more than anything else, and having a smaller number of more elite fighters is considered just as effective. Putting thousands of boys through basic training each cycle just to have them do their 3 years and then be "on standby" for the rest of their lives is much less cost effective than having soldiers who have decided to commit to a longer term career in the military. And of course those who only want to serve one or two tours could do that, too. Obviously the incentives (financial and otherwise) would have to be better -- but most experts don't believe that overall financially the IDF would come out behind.

And the bottom line is that almost no Western country has mandatory conscription anymore (except for a few European remnants) because the way wars are fought in the modern world are different than in the past where strength was in rows of guys shooting or thrusting bayonets, and whoever had the most men left standing at the end won.

A professional army means more motivated, more experienced, and better trained forces with less waste and an end to this big cultural divide. It will help the economy because it will reduce the tremendous amount of "under the table" work done by those who are not legally eligible to work because of draft issues (and this is not at all a problem unique to Chareidi society)..

Sanguine -- May you have lots of continued Nachas from him and all your other kids!

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:25 am

amother wrote:

shabbatiscoming and dr.mom

I'm seriously curious
To which part of Klal Yisroel do you belong?

I'm not spiting. I'm just so baffled. and curious.

Not enough long on this site to know you.

IRL I am not exposed to Yidden who are not part of my circles and I would like if someone can explain chareide and non chareide and frum not frum

I seriously thought all Yidden were in on this atzeres together.
Are there really yidden who defy all gedolim who support this atzeres?

Mind boggling to me and fascinating all the same.

anonymous because I'm embarrassed that I don't know something so basic

I'm sorry, someone who is on the internet but does not know that there are other Jews out there not like them? Not buying it at all.

rosehill ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:30 am

I've asked this on other threads, but never received a response.
What is the source for the notion that Torah learning has a protective effect? One that is equal to or greater than serving in an army?
I hear it oft repeated as a fact, but would like a traditional source for it.
Not that Torah learning is a good thing, not that it's wonderful, but that it actually has a protective effect.
TIA.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:30 am

Sanguine wrote:

There wouldn't be enough boys willing to be in the army just for money. They would have to higher mercenaries from around the world (Like Macabbi Tel Aviv)

Not likely. There are plenty of boys today who join for ideological reasons, not just because they have to. That wouldn't change, but practically, if it was a real viable "job" there are many who would consider it the same way people are interested in becoming policman or firefighters. There are those who hold it is a mitzvah, there are those who are nationalistic, there are those who will be interested in educational benefits or the like.

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:33 am

chaiz wrote:

But most people do not join willingly for money; they are joining for the cause.

LOL - maybe they will for the next few years, my younger son looks forward to the day that he's a Chayal like his older brothers, but slowly kids will turn to worrying about their futures. Maybe you can hire the people who work in offices, but very few 30 year olds still want to be hiking 50 kilometers and sleeping in the field. As more of their peers are starting serious hi-tech careers and the army isn't an ideology,the local kids won't join.
It's like kibbutzim. It used to be an ideology to work the land of Eretz Yisrael. Now the kibbutzim hire thailandim for very little and the Kibbutz kids get jobs in hi-tech. It's still being done, but the ideology is gone.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:34 am

shalhevet wrote:

And it calls on its followers to join the Atzeret today. Please do not believe the DL posters here who claim to be speaking for their groups (and say themselves they haven't asked their OWN rabbanim) that the DL is not attending the atzeret, because it is.

Help! How do I post the picture (you can see it by clicking on the link)

This came up earlier on the thread. (Not that I'm blaming you for not remembering all of the however many posts that have been written this morning, just for the record.)

Some DL rabbis are supporting the protest, some are against it. I don't think any DL posters here have claimed otherwise (although I, too, may have overlooked some posts).

For the record, since I posted earlier naming DL rabbis who are against the rally, several other "big name" DL rabbis have withdrawn their support because of what Yated Neeman wrote about Rabbi Druckman.

↑ ora_43

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:40 am

m in Israel wrote:

I don't think it's realistic to assume that the army could still count on all its "ideological" recruits. For one thing, even the ideological recruits mostly only enlist for as long as they are asked to. For another, if the army decides it doesn't need everyone, many people will stop perceiving army service as necessary.

In any case, the "plenty" of young men who believe in enlistment for ideological reasons are currently not the majority within the army, from what I've heard.

Policemen and firefighters - firefighters get paid very well. Policemen - WADR to those police officers who are highly dedicated, I'm not sure we should use the police force as an example of something the army could strive for.

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:43 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

I'm sorry, someone who is on the internet but does not know that there are other Jews out there not like them? Not buying it at all.

Yes, I also thought this was a very odd post.

1. You are not aware that there are Jews who don't support the protest? If every Jew supported the idea behind the protest, wouldn't there be no need for a protest? Are you using the word "Yidden" to mean "Jews who agree with me"?

2. Describing Jews who disagree with this protest as "defying gedolim" shows that you do not understand that the people *you* may revere as gedolim are not regarded as personal leaders by every single Jew in the frum world. Let's give another example: Rav Ovadia Yosef z"l stated that sheitels are assur, but many Ashkenazi Jews wear them. Are they "defying" a gadol? No, because Rav Ovadia Yosef z"l does not pasken for their community; he is Sefardi and thy are Ashkenazi. Similarly, there are splits between DL and haredi leadership roles.

3. You may find it useful to pick up a mainstream newspaper, or look at a mainstream Israeli news site, so see what haredi leaders have said about this protest to the non-haredi news outlets. And to educate yourself I general about other sectors of Jews within E"Y.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:45 am

shalhevet wrote:

I just received this email.

shalhevet, as dr mom said, you have a LOT of chutzpah to write that all of the DL posters are lying. What if the exact same thing was do e by a DL poster about a charedi org? All of the charedi posters would be up in arms.
We are not lying. There are many different rabbinic and communities in DL and they don't all agree on the same things.
Wh are you so set on having to show your way? Every Jew can have their on opinion. We don't gave to all follow yours.
And what org is this anyway?

Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:45 am

I did not read all 8 pages, perhaps someone already answered:
What would be the reason a Rabbi or some DL in general would be against a prayer rally?

↑ DrMom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:47 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I did not read all 8 pages, perhaps someone already answered:
What would be the reason a Rabbi or some DL in general would be against a prayer rally?

Even if this were just a parve "prayer rally" (and please don't insult our intelligence by calling it that), I wouldn't participate because it is blocking traffic and inconveniencing others.

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