Million Man Atzeres

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:07 am

Ariella28 wrote:

No no no, u got it wrong, I was not saying that at all! All I was saying is that all Yidden to get together and pray. A teffila has so much more pwer when there is such a big group of ppl. They are davening for rain for many things, no role of amalek. Gosh its hard to jus say things on the internet, e1 gets the wrong end of the stick!! Im really not so politically involved here, I live here, but im not israeli and I dont plan on living here for good...another year or so and I'm back in England!!

You personally may not be saying this but the banner in Hamevaser this morning is "להקהל ולעמוד על נפשם". Implicit in the allusion to the Purim story is the analogy between Haman and the Israeli government.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:14 am

"BTW, men don't have to close their gemara in the army, and you know it."

My husband's chavrusa was in the army. He got wounded and was unable to fight. He so badly wanted to go learn but the army still said they "needed him" although he was obviously not doing much for them. One day he was learning, he had his gemarra opened. His commander came over to him and told him to close it because "I'd rather have you sit and do nothing than learn".

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:17 am

RutiS wrote:

Dear dear women who keep writing how much the army protects the israeli citizens, all of them including the charedim: thats right , thay do and we daven for our soldiers' safety daily.

We charedim, are also soldiers, chayalim bitzava Hashem!

our husbands and sons who are learning the Torah are holding a keeping the WHOLE WORLD up, not only the residents of the state of israel.

you speak of hakarat hatov to the soldiers, what about hakarat hatov to our Torah learners?
they in essence keep us all alive
על שלושה דברים העולם עומד, על תורה עבודה וגמילות חסדים

We are not fighting about the army here we are fighting for the ability to study TORAH in our land!!!!

and, we, of course will be attending בנערינו ובזקנינו!!

hakarathatov for the full time Torah learners? If one does not believe that that way of living is correct, then why would they give hakarathatov hatov? And yes, I really did say that. In years gone by, only a select few select talmidim that were amazing talmidim learned full time.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:27 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:18 am

amother wrote:

Wow that is sad! And I agree with RutiS, Torah holds up the world! It is what prevents all bad! It only brings Bracha and good to Jews

chaiz ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:27 am

amother wrote:

Do you really expect us to believe your story just like that, especially when it is said anonymously? Really, do you think we just believe everything we are told?

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:29 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

hakarathatov for the full time Torah learners? If one does not believe that that way of living is correct, then why would they give hakarathatov hatov? And yes, I really did say that. In years gone by, only a select few talk idiom that were amazing talmidim learned full time.

Seriously, do you believe in the Torah? I don't have time to start quoting you pesukim and gemorras, but it is written in many, many places that 1. Jewish men have a chiyuv to learn Torah all the time (when possible for them) (start with the Shema) and 2. that learning Torah protects Am Yisroel.

Your post is sick and does not belong on a frum site. I have never, in my life, by the way, heard a frum Jew of any shape or form who does not have hakoras hatov to the soldiers in the IDF.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:31 am

A friend of mine posted this on his face book page: If there was a chiloni person who ditched the army and went to the beach, and then was arrested for doing so, would you say that he was "arrested for going to the beach"? Of course not. He was arrested for NOT going to the army.

So please stop with this nonsense of people getting arrested for learning torah. It's a manipulative tactic.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:32 am

amother wrote:

Oh, so if they are dodging the draft for any other reason they're left alone and not imprisoned. Legal sanctions are taken only against the ones learning Torah because the evil govt. (feel free to compare with the soneh yisrael of your choice) wants to stamp out Torah in Israel. Got it.

Yes exactly the govt wants to assimilate all chareidim -otherwise why the need to sudd draft... why are they targeting chareidim in every sense???

↑ Sanguine ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:33 am

RutiS wrote:

Dear dear women who keep writing how much the army protects the israeli citizens, all of them including the charedim: thats right , thay do and we daven for our soldiers' safety daily.

We charedim, are also soldiers, chayalim bitzava Hashem!

We are not fighting about the army here we are fighting for the ability to study TORAH in our land!!!!

We've been fighting for that for 2,000 years. Now we can. It's a Nes!! But if the Israeli army picked up and left, you wouldn't be studying Torah here. How many of the anglos here came so their husband could study Torah in Eretz Yisrael? You complain about the expenses and backwardness of the country but don't do your part to bring this country up to the standards you were used to back home. So go home. Go learn Torah in Lakewood. There's no draft in America anymore. You want to study in Your land? Well who do you think is enabling you to do that? Other Jews. Other 18 year olds who also want to sit and learn Torah.

Why can't chareidim find a way to work with the government instead of against them? Why can't chareidim appreciate how much the government gives them? Gives them the ability to study Torah in Eretz Yisrael. The government agreed to the Hesder program and as a result the hesder units are the highest level. There is a difference in the boys that join the army for Torah reasons. Those boys are chayalim bitzava Hashem

Last edited by Sanguine on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:39 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:34 am

shalhevet wrote:

most certainly believe in the Torah. I am a frum Jew. Never in history did we ever gave all men learning all of the time. As for hakarathatov hatov, to me the lull time learners are not upholding the world, sorry, that's not part of my world at all.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:36 am

Sanguine wrote:

Do they want to sit and learn?

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:37 am

shabbatiscoming and dr.mom

I'm seriously curious
To which part of Klal Yisroel do you belong?

I'm not spiting. I'm just so baffled. and curious.

Not enough long on this site to know you.

IRL I am not exposed to Yidden who are not part of my circles and I would like if someone can explain chareide and non chareide and frum not frum

I seriously thought all Yidden were in on this atzeres together.
Are there really yidden who defy all gedolim who support this atzeres?

Mind boggling to me and fascinating all the same.

anonymous because I'm embarrassed that I don't know something so basic

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:39 am

I can't respond to everything on this thread (and I'm not sure I really want to!), but this really blew me away:

Sanguine wrote:

Why are chareidi ashkenazim and sfardim at war with each other? (look at the elections in Beit Shemesh).

Do you have any clue what is going on in Beit Shemesh. The incumbent mayor, Moshe Abutbol is a Sefardi from the Shas party who ran with the full support of ALL the other Chareidi parties (Degel, Agudah, and the few smaller ones as well). Last cycle he also ran on behalf of ALL the Chareidi parties, against a bunch of other candidates who split the DL/ Chiloni vote, giving Abutbol a huge victory. This time the sell proclaimed "Zionist Bloc" got smart and ran only one candidate (after a very ugly "primary" season which ended with the DL canditate Aliza Bloch being "thrown under the bus" by her Bayit Yehudi sponsors at the last second and replaced with a Chiloni/ traditional man, Eli Cohen), leading to a very close election. The "Zionist block" called foul and turned to the courts to call for new elections, which they did and will be next week, iyh. Beit Shemesh politics is actually a great example of Chareidi Ashkenazim and Sefardim working incredibly well together! Not sure where you get this strange comment from.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:40 am

[quote="shalhevet"]So you agree that people should be imprisoned for learning Torah? If they choose to do so instead of going to the army?

It isn't a protest - it's a rally to proclaim Hashem Echad! To make a kiddush Hashem to combat the massive chilul Hashem of the State of Israel being the only place in the world which (today) wants to imprison Jews for learning Torah. Surely every religious Jew believes in that?

Just as a by the way, do you believe Israeli Arabs should be drafted?[/quote]

I haven't read through the law but Bennet is saying on his facebook page "You will not find a trace of criminal sanctions in the law.

Everyone, including those who are shouting, because they are expected to shout, knows that not one person studying Torah will be sent to jail. Period."
So.... which is it

↑ Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:43 am

Quote:

we dont need the army to survive, Hashem isnt small and can do nes chanuka (where a small amount of talmidei chachamim won a huge, well experienced army) again if necessary. that is something that any jew should realize.

and, we are not living in years gone by. TODAY the fact is many families want their husbands to learn torah, and we have the ability to learn in peace because we dont need to do the agricultural etc hard work of'years gone by'. in todays society the women offer to take on the burden of parna$$a so their husbands can learn all day. and trust me those who are not able to sit and learn all day DONT.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:45 am

shalhevet wrote:

Really, shabbat!

They are making this law to take the lomdei Torah out of the beis midrash. This isn't a group of Jews who landed in a Western country where there were already draft laws enacted and didn't want to enlist because they'd rather learn.

The whole intent of this law is to take the lomdei Torah away from their gemorras and throw them into the melting pot of the State of Israel! It has been stated dozens of times that they want the chareidim to become part of secular society, especially since the army/ national service/ joining the workforce are often used interchangeably or in the same breath.

This atzeret is not just about the army.

It is about whether a Jew is going to listen first to Torah or the laws of the State of Israel. And everyone knows that. Even Lapid mentioned that in his first speech as an MK - that he is going to teach people to put the law of the land before their faith.

[b]It is like Eliyahu on Har HaCarmel - are you with Hashem or with the Ba'al?[/b]

And many, many rabbanim from the DL community recognize this and have declared they are coming.

This is not about politics. It is about declaring that we are with Hashem and His Torah. And that a Jewish State is bankrupt if it wants people to have its laws override ratzon Hashem.

Until Hashem makes it manifestly and unequivocally clear to all that the haredi conception of full time Torah study to the exclusion of all other occupations, including participation in the defense of one's endangered country is the ideal life style for all Jewish males then our perceptions of what ratzon Hashem is will have to differ. Until then I think invoking Eliyahu on Har Hacarmel is a bit presumptuous.

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:47 am

Sanguine wrote:

A plan that could work for Chareidim (if they were interested). My nephew learned at merkaz Harav (this is my nephew with very long pais). They're not a hesder Yeshiva. They have a different set up with the army. He learned for 7 years and then went for half a year to the army. Because he already had one baby then, he even came home every Shabbat. Do all the chareidi boys sit more than 7 years just learning? That might be nice, but I don't believe they do. He now has 3 1/2 kids. He's very chardal. He works, learns Torah, and does miluim every year. He would have been happy to continue learning Torah forever but his family has to eat. The state isn't supporting his family. That's his responsibility. He protects Jews in Israel. He learns Torah when he can. He had his 7 years of just learning Torah (on top of Yeshiva HS). Torah is his life but he has to take care of the other things too.

He was able to do this because of the Tal law, which granted a deferment to anyone learning full time, Chareidi or not. This law is exactly the one that was shot down by the Supreme Court (which in Israel is an all powerful institution with no checks and balances. He would not be allowed to do this under the currently proposed (passed? I'm loosing track) law. This was my point earlier on the thread -- it was not only Chareidim who got this diychui as long as they were learning -- and even for Chareidim it was only valid as long as they learned full time. I have quite a few Chardal relatives who did similar things to what you describe- but it is no longer a legal option.

↑ Roots ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:50 am

Quote:

shabbatiscoming
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 02 2014, 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: re: Million Man Atzeres
shalhevet wrote:
Seriously, do you believe in the Torah? I don't have time to start quoting you pesukim and gemorras, but it is written in many, many places that 1. Jewish men have a chiyuv to learn Torah all the time (when possible for them) (start with the Shema) and 2. that learning Torah protects Am Yisroel.

Your post is sick and does not belong on a frum site. I have never, in my life, by the way, heard a frum Jew of any shape or form who does not have hakoras hatov to the soldiers in the IDF.

most certainly believe in the Torah. I am a frum Jew. Never in history did we ever gave all men learning all of the time. As for hakarathatov hatov, to me the lull time learners are not upholding the world, sorry, that's not part of my world at all.

we arre not living in history, we have to constantly adapt to new situations. today we want our boys to learn torah as much as possible, its a sick world out there and thats our best protection.

also, to you is the army upholding the world? more than torah? answer me as a frum jew, do u think Hashem is limited and we wont survive iran or iraq if charedim dont enlist. do u think that we neec to uproot the torah learning so that there should be more soldiers?
what do u believe the quote 'al shlosha dvarim' means

curlgirl ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:55 am

RutiS, it sounds as though you have not been taught about Hishtadlus, a very basic tenet of Jewish faith and something Hashem expects from all of us, as much as possible while keeping the Torah and mitzvot.

So just like some men need to take time off Torah learning to earn a living for their family, so must as many men as needed take time off Torah learning to defend our country, whether you see it as a secular country you happen to be living in or as a gift from Hashem, a Jewish country in our own land.

Are you a BT?