would your kids do this? Please be honest about it

etky ↓

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 3:25 pm

Definitely a cultural thing. For people from English speaking cultures private property is sacrosanct.
I'm not talking about the religious/ethical prohibition against stealing. These (dati) kids that chopped up the bookcase would probably be (rightfully) horrified and ashamed if their actions were described to them as outright stealing.
Private property and the deep taboo that most of us westeners feel about encroaching upon (even touching) another's property stems from the classic liberal conception of property rights as intertwined with an individual's essential freedoms that are the very foundation of civil society. This is very deeply ingrained especially within the American psyche.
I don't know what these kids were thinking about the bookcase regarding to whom it belonged. It was probably convenient for them to assume it was hefker. But the fact is that they did not feel that deep cultural taboo about touching, much less requisitioning something that did not belong to them.
Other factors, as others mentioned are the relative freedom that kids have here to roam and less parental supervision.
Also, perhaps the fact that most of us in this country are apartment dwellers and live in closer quarters to each other, resulting in less clear cut boundaries in regard to private property.
BTW - my kids were horrified when I told them about this.

↑ etky ↓

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 5:09 pm

freidasima wrote:

My dh said to them straight out "this is gezel, you are responsible for gezel". They shrugged and said "sorry" and that really didn't hit them too badly.

Well then whoever the parents are, they are certainly not doing a good job of transmitting values: cultural, religious or otherwise. Or maybe they thought it was the school's job....

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 5:30 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

freidasima wrote:

My dh said to them straight out "this is gezel, you are responsible for gezel". They shrugged and said "sorry" and that really didn't hit them too badly.

If you know the parents of the boys, you should go and actually collect the money.What they did was terrible

You just might get the response we got when we mentioned to parents that their children had scratched our car quite awfully with their bicycles:

We are not halachically responsible for any damage caused by our children. <grin> <grin>

We weren't looking for money but a reminder to their children to ride responsibly in the parking lot.

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 10:03 pm

I live in the US.

My neighbor's son threw a bunch of construction material of ours into the woods. My neighbor laughed and said "wow I can't believe it." I never saw a penny

Another neighbor helped themselves to landscaping material since "the workers left it on the side so I thought you didn't need it anymore"

(I live in a 2 family house with 2 private separate entrances for each family. Other family always sits on the steps by my entrance with the strollers, outdoor toys for kids etc. blocking my access every time I go in and out. It's annoying but I can't bring myself to say anything.)

None of the above mentioned people are Israeli. Just btw. So it does happen elsewhere...

↑ naturalmom5 ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 2:30 am

amother wrote:

And I will bet everything I will make this week that this happened in Monsey

peacemom

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 3:29 am

I am shocked at the unbelievable stereotyping in this thread. You all really believe that only children of Israeli born parents, or mizrachi children would do something like this? Well, I've been here long enough to observe that children of American born parents also can be chutzpadik... it's just called "bad parenting". I'm not saying that I am the perfect mother, I hope my kids would not have done something like this, but you never know. I'm sorry, but I think Americans have a bit of a chip on their shoulders when it comes to Israelis. (I am American born and raised also!) Not all Americans are so concerned about their neighbors property and some Israelis are. Please do not judge!

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 4:35 am

I stand by what I said about a cultural difference. We are a less formal society here, for good and for bad.
This sometimes leads to a blurring of boundaries. There is also tremendous emphasis on the collective, sometimes at the expense of respect for individual rights. Contrast our socialist heritage with American 'rugged individualism'. Yes, the kibbutznik and the homesteader are stereotypes, but their cultural legacy has left an impact on their respective societies.
Regarding bad parenting - this cuts across sectors. Many parents don't realize that kids don't learn by osmosis. Values have to be actively instilled. Behavioral codes have to be consciously taught and reiterated - especially negative precepts that are hard to teach by personal example, like "don't steal". If parents fail to do this they shouldn't wonder that their kids end up destroying someone elses' property and worse - feeling little remorse when the significance of their acts is pointed out to them.

↑ freidasima ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 5:22 am

I'm afraid I have to go with what etky said as well.
First this thread isn't meant to be LH about any particular group but rather a question to ALL imamothers ALL over the world regarding whether they think their kids would do this.

Second, there really is a cultural difference here with a tremendous emphasis on the collective and the individual who stands in the way of the collective, even if he has the law on his side, is considered a "party pooper".

Third, there was no intention of mentioning that only Mizrahi kids would do this. I repeat - the reason that the whole issue of Mizrahi came up was to point out that none of these kids were from Anglo families or even Western European families. Yes I do think that the upbringing of western european kids and anglo kids here is often different than that of other groups, any other groups. But in truth the anglos and western european families in EY are a drop in the bucket compared to the majority of Israelis and this has nothing to do with religious group, it has to do with cultural norms at home. I have often seen adult israelis just "take" or as Tamiri wrote earlier "if the going is good". It's the norm of the country, comes from the days of the youth movements and the palmach when it was a "good trick" to steal a chicken from a coop somewhere and roast it for the "hevre" at a kumzitz. No one thought of it as "stealing" although that's exactly what it was. Same for Hashlamat tziyud in the army, one unit or even an individual "taking" from another in the army framework" to have whatever supplies they need. An accepted norm. And it unfortunately just too easily carries over from stealing from the "kibbutz" or the "army" to taking from an individual. No one will walk into someone's house and take something but if it is in your yard? Outside on a lawn? Behind the house leaning on the wall next to the machsan? It's up for grabs in people's minds.

It's not LH it's just the way the country is run.

↑ Tablepoetry

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 6:36 am

Inspired by this thread, I just went to tell off the kids pillaging the house under construction across our street.
Now, granted the house has been abandoned 6 months already (they ran out of money), but it's still private property.

I tried explaining that to a bunch of Bnei Akiva teens who looked at me like I had fallen from the moon (not because I'm anglo, btw - I speak Hebrew fluently). They just didn't get it. They tried explaining to me that obviously the home owners wouldn't want this old stump or that big log. I told them maybe not, but you have to ask them, it's private property, they paid (very good) money for it.

They didn't get it in the least. Why the need to ask when it's obvious? They were polite though. Finally one of the girls was smart and said she 'knew' the homeowners and they had said it was ok....

Yeah, cultural differences.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 7:33 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Oy, do I know that look! Also observed on many a kids' face after I've just dispensed unsolicited advice or warnings about whatever dangerous activity I had just witnessed them doing. If my kids happen to be with me, they usually want to go bury themselves somewhere or pretend they're not with the 'crazy lady'.

abound ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 7:39 am

My born and bred 10-year-old Israeli son of American parents, said he would never do such a thing- but he has witnessed boys taking succah boards that people keep in their yards around the buildings (never furniture). He said that he thinks you should confront the parents because he does not think it will be a fight- he thinks they may be embarressed but will pay up right away. Also, he said that for the good of the boys you should tell them because they are mechuyav to pay you back after bar mitzva. Smile

He said he would never do that.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 8:30 am

And on the topic of Succot, it was common practice in our neighborhood for boys to pluck aravot off of other peoples' willow trees, especially in advance of Hoshana Raba. A few years ago, the local religious council had to put out a notice about this to end this practice.
Another instance that demonstrates this casual disregard of ownership was when my DS came home early one year from a Lag Ba'Omer bonfire because he was upset that his shevet had poached the stockpile of wood that some other group had obviously gathered for their own bonfire. Again - lack of respect for boundaries.

↑ etky ↓

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 8:44 am

Oh - and by some bizarre coincidence, I just saw that on our community list someone posted today that there would soon be a מבצע החזרת ציוד לצה"ל in our area - a uniquely Israeli phenomenon whereby reserve soldiers and discharged recruits are given an amnesty to anonymously return all military equipment (you should see what's on the list - everything from bully beef to missiles) that they 'borrowed' from the IDF over the years. Such operations are conducted periodically all over the country.