Nechemya Weberman charged with abusing 12 yr old girl

Maya ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 5:45 pm

Ruchel wrote:

But, Joe? he's not an abused boy?

Which Joe are you talking about?

↑ Orchid ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 5:46 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Orchid wrote:

Not taking sides is THE SAME THING as not taking action against a possible rodef (al pi din). That 's equivalent to Switzerland not accepting fleeing Jews into their country during WWII because they didn't want to "take sides."

Not "taking sides" is actually against halacha because then by failing to protect abused children you would be over on lo saamod al dam reiacha.

Not "taking sides" is the equivalent of doing nothing.... and we all know what flourishes when good men do nothing....

"Not taking sides" as in we, the laypeople who know nothing about the case other than what we've seen in the papers, shouldn't be declaring guilt or innocence before there's a verdict.

Not "not taking sides" as in, everybody should just stay out of it and let the grown self-proclaimed therapist and the child he raped deal with this on their own, chv"s. Of course there needs to be intervention, and judgement. It's just a question of who hands down the judgement and when.

I find it interesting that the people who proclaim loudly not to take sides are supportive of the rally..... irony alert! irony alert!

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 5:47 pm

so you are saying that he is guilty?

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 5:55 pm

Orchid wrote:

When you say "no possible way" you mean during the 12 hour secluded trips to the mountains in blatant violation of hilchos yichud and therapy standards?

First of all how do you know this for a fact? I didn't read any court records, so maybe that was presented as evidence. I'm not familiar with this at all. Or did you read it from posts on imamother or on a different blog?
If he did do that then to start he did something stupid and perhaps against halacha. Does that in itself make him a molester? Is he not worthy of representation in court based on that piece of information?

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:05 pm

I don't understand the Switzerland analogy. How will raising money for him to have a fair trial cause others to be molested?

StrawberrySmoothie wrote:

Honey, I'm in middle of a divorce. To date, my legal fees have costed over $40,000. No one raised this money for me. We didn't host tzedaka parties. Yes, my parents paid for it. But if they didn't have that extra money sitting around (most people don't) I would have used legal aid. No one is "entitled" to the top lawyers. You use what YOU can afford. It just seems silly when there are millions of other worthy orginizations that actually do good.

If the accuser in this trial could not afford a good lawyer would you think it was silly to raise money to get her the best lawyer possble. I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

bluebird

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:35 pm

Clarissa, your list is great! I wonder if it would be helpful to expand it to other topics as children get older, such as addressing emotional manipulation, which is a really powerful weapon abusers wield.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:36 pm

Mamabear - think long and hard before you post. Just saying.

↑ Maya ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:38 pm

chavamom wrote:

Mamabear - think long and hard before you post. Just saying.

Exactly what I was going to say. I think she shouldn't post at all because no matter what, there will always be someone who will find fault. We ARE talking about Satmar, after all.

↑ celestial ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:40 pm

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
-Elie Wiesel

↑ black sheep ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:48 pm

sky wrote:

StrawberrySmoothie wrote:

I don't see what is wrong to raise money to pay for better counsel. I think doing it in such a public manner is insensitive and wrong. But collecting the money - ok.
Sometimes using the gov't appointed counsel is an automatic guilty sentence. That is not fair either.

You would tell a women whose children would most likely be given to an ex if she used public counsel not to raise the money?

do you see what is wrong with raising money to pay for better counsel for the accused molester, but not for the one who was molested? you are impartial if you are raising money equally for both sides.

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 6:58 pm

I actually did write that I hope people are collecting money for her if needed.

sky wrote:

I hope that people are doing this for her as well and will not rely on public legal aid.

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:00 pm

celestial wrote:

so whose side are you taking and why? Are you saying he is guilty?

↑ eatingbagels ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:01 pm

Maya wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

But, Joe? he's not an abused boy?

Which Joe are you talking about?

I believe Ruchel is referring to the man in this link:

Quote:

Yeah, he looks just like the hunky boyfriend that every preteen dreams of.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:02 pm

People ought to be raising money for the years of therapy she is going to need after the harassment she has endured.

↑ sky ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:06 pm

Orchid wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Orchid wrote:

I find it interesting that the people who proclaim loudly not to take sides are supportive of the rally..... irony alert! irony alert!

Why be so quick to judge?

ora_43 wrote:

I don't think it's bad to raise money for someone who's been accused but not convicted. If one of the people I trust were accused of a crime I'd probably do the same for them. All money does is buy someone a decent defense, not affect the outcome (unless it's a corrupt court, I guess, but hopefully that's not the situation).

But the way they are doing it is terrible terrible terrible. Even if the man really were innocent - what does it do to people who might have suffered molestation, to see so many posters supporting the accused and accusing the victim?

And if he's not innocent, it's a hundred times worse. And since nobody knows for sure if he's innocent except him and this girl, nobody should be taking that risk by openly accusing her, no matter how much they trust him.

And I find it so ironic that those who say to try this in a court of law (which it should be) are ready to hang him before the trial.

↑ imamiri ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:12 pm

chavamom wrote:

People ought to be raising money for the years of therapy she is going to need after the harassment she has endured.

^^This, 1000 times.

And for all the victims of harassment in Williamsburgh: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05......html

↑ Mama Bear ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:16 pm

Okay. First off, I dont have any specific insider information other than hearsay, gossip and rumor. I've spoken on the phone with many locals, I've read the blogosphere, watched the news clips, and am well aware of the current environment, the media perspective on the abuse (pardon the pun) of the already-victimized, b'kitzer, I'm well read up on the whole kit and caboodle, so the following is how I was able to piece together the whole story. None of this is fact; NONE OF US KNOW THE TRUE FACTS. Everyone here on this site, and all over the web, only knows gossip and hearsay and she-said-he-said. So keep an open mind when reading this.

As I understand it, the girl, who shall heretofore be referred to as K, began showing signs of rebellion and confusion in elementary school. I have my theories on why this happened, but I won't elaborate bc of Loshon hora. But whoever knows her background can well imagine why. The school admin was getting concerned about her acting out and asked her parents to find someone for her to talk to. Since her father is good friends with the defendant, heretofore referred to as W, who is a respected community askan who has counseled numerous people and helped scores of others in general, she began to see him.

NOW: the allegations that he 1) took her upstate for 12 hours, 2) spent 3 hours a time with her, 3) transgressed yichud - I have a hard time believing that, considering what an ehrlicher Yid he is. We did not get corroboration from his side that this was true. So, you may choose to believe this information,, and you may choose not to believe this information. Remember, right now, it's all conjecture.

Unfortunately despite the counseling, her behavior got worse and the school was forced to ask her to leave. None of the other schools wanted to accept her until she was finally accepted, as someone noted on this thread, in Munkatch.

Now here is where the story gets dicey. There are 2 'stories' floating around about what happened next. The "K" camp claims as was reported on CALANY, that K was sent to a therapist by her school, where she revealed the abuse, and the therapist reported it to the authorities. The "W" camp claims that the charges were trumped up by a boyfriend of K, who as the 2 different versions go was either a) caught by K's father or b) a 'stalker' to K a few years ago, in either case, W was asked to intervene, he told the boyfriend to stay away from the girl - or else! And the boyfriend vowed revenge against W.

Once the charges were filed, the K family offered to settle it quietly, but W was so horrified at the accusation, that he pleaded innocent and is determined to clear his name in court.

Now, here is where the two camps form. There are two ways to view this story.

1) HORRORS! An innocent man has been framed! All W did was try to help this girl, and this is how he gets repaid! The girl cannot be trusted, she's a troublemaker, anyone can decide to exact revenge on an authority figure they're upset at, anyone is fair game, their name will be tarnished forever!
2) DISGUSTING! How can anyone side with W? How can anyone choose not to believe this girl? When there's smoke there's fire, something definitely happened there, why is the community always siding with the abuser and not the victim? Small wonder victims are afraid to own up if this is how they get treated!

It's very easy to get carried away with either of the 2 viewpoints, depending on where you stand. Everyone is horrified - but horrified to one extreme. The Wmsbg oilam cannot grasp that a person of such standing, who has everything to lose by committing such a crime, would actually do something like that, while it's not hard for them to believe that a girl who's been a troublemaker for years would cook up this libel to get back at a community she hates. If you're an outsider, not knowing either of them - not K and not W - it's super easy to jump on the bandwagon of "Stop protecting the abusers, protect the victim", especially with the current environment of animosity and stereotype against the 'rabbis' for 'brushing abuse under the rug'.

I'm not denying that such brushing occurs. I'm not denying that abuse occurs. But I'm also recognizing that abuse of the opposite occurs, too; it's easy, and convenient, for someone who has a vendetta against their former community, to accuse a person of power and bring him down. Unfortunately, whether you choose to believe K or choose to believe W, youre then disenfranchising a large segment of the population; the victims of abuse, or the askanim who have been trying to help struggling youth. Both of these segments will now be reluctant to reach out, knowing that their word will never stand up against the word of the other side.

Now, where did the W camp go terribly wrong? By turning this into a media spectacle. I understand they needed to raise funds for his defense. He is being accused of a crime; he is facing a lengthy jail sentence. Getting a public defender is almost worse than getting no defender. So yes, if he needed a legal fund, he deserves a legal fund just like anyone accused of a crime who can't afford a lawyer. But this could have been accomplished quietly, without all this fanfare. Even had they decided to rent a ballroom and turn it into a large fundraiser, those posters were outrageous, which led to the media firestorm. The news clips I watched online were horrendous; these sheltered people have no idea how to comport themselves on camera and they came across smug and leery. One or two of the spokespeople did present compelling statements, but by and large, the community came off looking terrible in the media. In my opinion, W should have taken a plea bargain; haven't we learned from the past few trials with frum defendants - Rubashkin, Lebowitz, Weingarten - who guilty or not guilty, were served 30 year sentences!!! In contrast, frum defendants who took plea bargains, served quiet, short sentences and moved on with their lives. I really hope justice is served; if he is truly innocent, he should be exonerated, and if he isn't, he should serve his time.

The bottom line of this long megillah is - everyone here, every single poster, needs to have an open mind and NOT JUMP TO SUCH HASTY CONCLUSIONS. We do not know the facts. All we know is hearsay. Both sides are very heated; neither side will ever give in. No one here will be convinced that they are wrong. But I want each of you to try to see the other side's point of view. If youre staunchly defending the girl and are completely convinced that W did molest her; can you for one moment put yourself in the shoes of W's supporters? To them, believing that such a wonderful, respected community activist is capable of such an awful crime is basically impossible. Believing that a girl who has flaunted unspoken community standards time and time again, and surrounds herself with many other rebels and troublemakers has concocted the libel out of revenge is way more plausible. But if youre a "W" supporter and are horrified at the people here who do believe her and are outraged that you are defending him, put yourself in their shoes for a minute. To the world at large, the world that does not know either K or W, this is a cut-and-dried case of a helpless, confused girl being molested and then harrassed for speaking up. You will not be able to explain your point of view no matter how hard you try, and youre making us all look worse....

In my opinion, we need to lay this whole debate to rest, and leave it up to the American Court System - and the Hidden Heavenly Hand manipulating this world - to figure it all out. All we are accomplishing here is perpetuating misconceptions, building hate, supporting divisiveness, and furthering stereotypes. WE DON'T KNOW THE FACTS. WE ONLY KNOW HEARSAY. WE CANNOT RENDER A VERDICT.

I hope that this long winded essay has succeeded in opening everyone's eyes a tiny bit, at least, and presenting a balanced perspective on this endless bruhaha. Have yourselves a good Shabbos and a happy cheesecake baking week!

↑ First Lady ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:31 pm

Mama Bear your post will not help.
Some posters here have already decided THAT HE IS GUILTY without knowing any facts at all. According to them he does not need a court case. They have already proven him guilty.
And a poster dare stand up and say....please don't rush to judgement before he's even convicted of this alleged crime...is already considered someone who sides with molesters Confused

.
For your info I am not siding with either one because I don't know any details.

Imagine the court finds him innocent......

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:32 pm

Gee, thanks for posting the shmutz from the street Mama Bear. Really. You shouldn't have.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, May 17 2012, 7:38 pm

You are right, all of you. Innocent until proven guilty. But you realize the state investigated this case extensively and brought an astonishing 150 counts against this man? And as was posted, teh girl did not go to the police nor did her family. A mandatory reporter reported this case. MINIMALLY you should be "choshed" and acting to protect your families. Where "raise money for the accused and harass the alleged victim" comes into play? I want to vomit thinking that this is some twisted form of righteousness in some of your minds.