Witness all the mommies walking around with sour faces, shlepping gaggles of kids behind them to the super and you know everyone has had just about enough.
Witness the selfless grandparents doing same, with more pleasant demeanors. Lucky grandchildren. Lucky parents.
OK, before we wrap up this thread, I have the following questions:
1) Tamiri, is the camp thread STILL making you ill?
2) Has anyone who was sending to camp, come to the realization after reading this thread, to terminate their child's membership?
3) Has anyone who wasn't sending to camp till now, decide to begin sending to camp courtesy of this thread?
4) Has anyone who has had negative thoughts about camp and entitlement, changed their mind?
5) Has anyone who has had positive thoughts about camp and felt entitled, changed their mind?
6) How many different topics did this thread touch upon?
7) How many threads did this thread inspire?
I
ll think of more questions later.
You are lucky I'm checking in. I'm not feeling ill anymore but thanks for asking. None of my opinions have changed though I realize that for some, camp is a must even if it is a luxury and no, I'm not paying for it so what do I care?
But the question is, Tamiri, if someone WOULD ask you to pay for it, would you care?
And now seriously, I want to suggest something radical.
If camp is so important for some SAHMs as was explained here, and they can't afford the charges, why don't they try to put together a cooperative. Thirty mothers each of whom give two times a month to care for the kids and make activities for them. Asking the school or chaider for the use of a classroom and the yard. Asking each of the Rebbes or the Morahs to donate a day for each of the two months to give the kids an hour and a half of torah. Yeah it's not optimal, not in the country, and you need cooperation and someone to make the roster and the school or chaider to be willing to donate the electricity and the premisis. But it will get the kids out of your hair, give them four or five hours out of the house before lunch so that you have your time for errands, to cook, clean or just plain rest. You in turn give to your community by donating your two days out of twenty eight weekdays to this activity. The Morahs or Rebbes can factor this into the equivalent of their ma'aser (what their time would be worth) so they don't come out wanting eather.
Its not optimal. But it's better than asking for zedoko. And better than having your kids home if you can't cope with them.
Just to clarify: We aren't talking sick kids, SN kids or handicapped kids. Just regular normal rambunctious little kids whose mothers feel that they can't cope with them at home during the summer, day in and day out.
FS, if only it were that easy. Because all the same rules come into play: how to shlep from one house to another with 7 kids under 5 and no vehicle. It's hot out. It still leaves all the other kids at home. Etc. It won't work. The mothers WANT and NEED to have the kids out of the house, for whatever reasons. There are women here (gryp?) who could probably make it work but for a lot of others it's just to darn overwhelming.
Taking care of the kids after a certain age, in certain circles is NOT seen as the mother's job, even a SAHM. She's there for procreation, shopping, cooking, straightening up (hopefully before and after the cleaning lady's day) etc. NOT for entertaining the children.
Just how it is.
As long as it's not on my cheshbon, yalla - who cares.
If I were approached to donate to the cause, I'd laugh them into the next century, which is my prerogative.
As a matter of fact, I belonged to such co-ops during certain periods of my mothering days. It's a great concept, but everyone has to be on the same page.
Tamiri the idea is to hold it in the same building that the kids go to school in. The same way they get to school they will get to the summer camp.
If a mother really can't afford anything and has a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 year old that she MUST have out of the house (and IMHO if those are her spacings maybe SHE should get out of the house..) then even if she volunteers at each one's camp 2 times a month, that's 16 times a month which STILL leaves her 12 free weekdays.
I agree that one has to be on the same page. But I was brought up that almost anything was better than taking zedoko unless you were starving or someone was dying, very ill, or terribly handicapped and you needed medicine or care for them.
I guess in some circles not only is there no shame attached to taking charity on a regular basis anymore. The Jewish world has created a norm of paupers with outstretched palms who consider it their right to demand that others take the physical and financial responsibilities for THEIR choice.
Oy!
Back to page one, LOL.
FS, from being on this board I realize that (1) a LOT has changed in the 27+ years I've been married and (2) it ain't necessarily for the better and (3) if I'm ever going to be a MIL I'd better learn to be blind, deaf and dumb
coop wouldn't work for me. the whole idea of my daughter going to day camp is that the baby stays intact, I found her biting his toes and shlepping him around. also this summer she was sick 3 times already, each time I kept her home from camp for a day or 2, I bless that place and the fact that I can put her on a school bus and breathe for a few hours without having to worry that the headlines the next day will be 'toddler amputates baby's toes'. also with all my running to drs with the 2 of them, I don't have patience for a coop thingy, it would probably end up on the only day of the week that I have no appointments! I need some free time too
coop wouldn't work for me. the whole idea of my daughter going to day camp is that the baby stays intact, I found her biting his toes and shlepping him around. also this summer she was sick 3 times already, each time I kept her home from camp for a day or 2, I bless that place and the fact that I can put her on a school bus and breathe for a few hours without having to worry that the headlines the next day will be 'toddler amputates baby's toes'. also with all my running to drs with the 2 of them, I don't have patience for a coop thingy, it would probably end up on the only day of the week that I have no appointments! I need some free time too
coop wouldn't work for me. the whole idea of my daughter going to day camp is that the baby stays intact, I found her biting his toes and shlepping him around. also this summer she was sick 3 times already, each time I kept her home from camp for a day or 2, I bless that place and the fact that I can put her on a school bus and breathe for a few hours without having to worry that the headlines the next day will be 'toddler amputates baby's toes'. also with all my running to drs with the 2 of them, I don't have patience for a coop thingy, it would probably end up on the only day of the week that I have no appointments! I need some free time too
I think you summed it up perfectly. Thanks!
glad to help. she was home yesterday, found her holding him by the neck. I need a cage for him.... I just put her on the bus,debating if I should nap with the baby or go to the grocery so we have food for shabbos- couldn't do anything with her around yesterday.
But I was brought up that almost anything was better than taking zedoko unless you were starving or someone was dying, very ill, or terribly handicapped and you needed medicine or care for them.
I was raised the same way, FS. It went along with the lessons in deferred gratification (teaching us about saving up for toys we wanted instead of blowing all our allowance on comic books and candy and then kvetching because we couldn't have ____), the lessons on how sometimes you just can't have ____ (building a Barbie's Dream House out of cardboard boxes and buying real cake mixes instead of the Easy-Bake Oven) and the lessons in gratitude (drives through the poorest sections of town to see that others had it worse than we did). If it sounds Draconian, honestly, it wasn't.
I passed a lot of those lessons on to my son, and he has become a disciplined, ambitious, fiscally-responsible individual. I don't worry that he won't have money to send his future kids to camp (see how I worked that in? ) because he's learned how to budget and prioritize. He hasn't asked for any assistance since he moved out, even though at one point he was on minimum wage and his hours were being cut. So I am very proud of him. And I don't expect him to take tzedakah, either, unless the straits are very dire. If he has to, he'll be grateful as opposed to entitled.
Back to page one, LOL.
FS, from being on this board I realize that (1) a LOT has changed in the 27+ years I've been married and (2) it ain't necessarily for the better and (3) if I'm ever going to be a MIL I'd better learn to be blind, deaf and dumb
Well, then we'll have to abbreviate your name to Tami, and teach you to play a mean pinball.
But don't be so quick to think that the opinions expressed in this thread mirror the greater world. If anything, I see the following:
(I) More interest in keeping kids home longer. Home schooling. No camp. Tremendous pride taken in kids who are 7 or 8 years old never having been minded by anyone other than mom or dad, maybe grandma or grandpa for a couple of hours.
(ii) Even amongst those who send kids to camp, sending for fewer weeks, and to more specialized camps. Just a few years ago, there were almost no day programs for older kids. Now there are a great number.
Its also quite NY-centric, as friends in other parts of the country don't use of depend upon camps the way many NY-ers dol
Barbara, I'm not sure it's "New Yorkers" but rather a certain group of frum Jews in a certain area. Because the new yorkers I know of - if they worked they could afford camp without trouble and if they didn't work and couldn't afford camp they considered it quite normal to have their kids home with them during the summer. And I don't mean in past tense. I mean kids of my friends today who are in their 20s and 30s and are at home and their kids don't go to camp if they need the money for something else (like tuition!)
Also Tamiri, and I speak as a mother in law, there is a time to be blind and deaf and dumb but also a point where you should definitely speak up, especially if they are doing something stupid and dangerous which can have irreversable effects on your child or grandchild, or are counting on you to foot the bill (which I have seen happen) without asking your first if you agree.
Because in those cases if you don't speak up and G-d forbid something terrible happens (in the first case) you will NEVER forgive yourself for not having tried to stop it. And in the second case it can definitely ruin YOUR sholom bayis if you find yourself in serious debt because of a child-in-law's actions. A child, that's bad enough. But an in-law child? Oy!
Back to page one, LOL.
FS, from being on this board I realize that (1) a LOT has changed in the 27+ years I've been married and (2) it ain't necessarily for the better and (3) if I'm ever going to be a MIL I'd better learn to be blind, deaf and dumb
Well, then we'll have to abbreviate your name to Tami, and teach you to play a mean pinball.
Back to page one, LOL.
FS, from being on this board I realize that (1) a LOT has changed in the 27+ years I've been married and (2) it ain't necessarily for the better and (3) if I'm ever going to be a MIL I'd better learn to be blind, deaf and dumb
Well, then we'll have to abbreviate your name to Tami, and teach you to play a mean pinball.
WHO??????????????????? Rock on, Tommy
You are probably the last person I thought would get that. I loved you before. I love you even more now!
And if we remember our rock opera plot lines (such as they were), Tommy ran a Holiday Camp! (Before the whole thing fell apart in a massive way, leaving our protagonist singing "See me, feel me, touch me, heal me" and leaving music fans with two songs called "We're Not Gonna Take It". (Did you find that twisted, sisters?)
Back to page one, LOL.
FS, from being on this board I realize that (1) a LOT has changed in the 27+ years I've been married and (2) it ain't necessarily for the better and (3) if I'm ever going to be a MIL I'd better learn to be blind, deaf and dumb
Well, then we'll have to abbreviate your name to Tami, and teach you to play a mean pinball.
WHO??????????????????? Rock on, Tommy
You are probably the last person I thought would get that. I loved you before. I love you even more now!
I am really going to embarrass myself, but I can't resist. I WAS THERE when it was debued!!
And if we remember our rock opera plot lines (such as they were), Tommy ran a Holiday Camp! (Before the whole thing fell apart in a massive way, leaving our protagonist singing "See me, feel me, touch me, heal me" and leaving music fans with two songs called "We're Not Gonna Take It". (Did you find that twisted, sisters?)
I loved Twisted Sister.
Uncle Ernie the pedophile ran the camp at the beginning. Which should be sufficient proof that not only is camp not a necessity, its a bad thing.
Although, of course, Tommy runs a camp at the end, too. Bad ending. Hmmmm.
New thread. No one should send their kids to camp. Ever.
) because he's learned how to budget and prioritize. He hasn't asked for any assistance since he moved out, even though at one point he was on minimum wage and his hours were being cut. So I am very proud of him. And I don't expect him to take tzedakah, either, unless the straits are very dire. If he has to, he'll be grateful as opposed to entitled.
I loved Twisted Sister.
