Once upon a time, and still today in some cases, I agree the husband should do a benign dictatorship.
But when the woman is as (or more! especially today when many women study/work while the man goes straight from yeshiva to kollel!) worldly as the man, it is at BEST unneeded, and certainly not fair. Nowadays the wife isn't like "the oldest child", if she ever was.
And if we want to talk about previous generations, I wouldn't describe my parents or grandparents' marriage that way. Great grandparents, maybe.
I didn't say anything about the wife being like the oldest child. I think that's completely wrong.
But benign dictatorship doesn't work with people you hold as equals (even equal but different, as I hold). I only hear this term in relationship to parent/child traditional setting.
By some, no one thinks of "who is the authority" because it is not on their radar that one of them HAS to be, per se, apart from mandated by halacha.
I personally didn't really reflect on it and certainly don't pay attention to minding my place or lack thereof in every day life, or giving kavod as a wife to a husband (I certainly emphasize parental and paternal respect and obedience with DD), or staying in woman's world, or wondering if my attitude is reflecting of my gender except when halacha mandated.
I do not see that it is asked of me, was never taught so, and do not think it would bring me any good (and before this discussion, it wasn't on the radar).
I want to add that for those who seek, there are answers. On Feminism and "women are inferior in Judaism", I found (as did my mom, who is a very modern and highly intellectual person) rebbetzin Jungreis' answers excellent. "Incredible", as my mom said, that it isn't taught in all schools, and a shame that there are women who could do teshuva and are turned off - and even lo alenu frum women who leave to search for "equality" in various non traditional groups...
Hashem is neither man nor woman, his laws are not biased one way or another, neither is his love. If your RAV is, change HIM.
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A smart couple will delegate to each spouse according to their strengths and form a good working partnership.
Yup. Business deal or family, it would be "shooting yourself in the foot" not to. What, they should eat the wife's horrible food when the husband cooks well because she is a woman? and they should put up with the husband's horrible DIY skills while the woman learned as a kid but he is the man?? lol
It's not such an overt issue. It's an aspect of being there as a helper to one's husband through life, and becoming one body with four legs.
The thing is, I'm totally fine with this and think this is definitely the ideal. I'm sure most (all?) posters here will agree. And still I still don't see the use of what I mentioned above.
It's not such an overt issue. It's an aspect of being there as a helper to one's husband through life, and becoming one body with four legs.
The thing is, I'm totally fine with this and think this is definitely the ideal. I'm sure most (all?) posters here will agree. And still I still don't see the use of what I mentioned above.
Once upon a time, and still today in some cases, I agree the husband should do a benign dictatorship.
But when the woman is as (or more! especially today when many women study/work while the man goes straight from yeshiva to kollel!) worldly as the man, it is at BEST unneeded, and certainly not fair. Nowadays the wife isn't like "the oldest child", if she ever was.
And if we want to talk about previous generations, I wouldn't describe my parents or grandparents' marriage that way. Great grandparents, maybe.
I didn't say anything about the wife being like the oldest child. I think that's completely wrong.
But benign dictatorship doesn't work with people you hold as equals (even equal but different, as I hold). I only hear this term in relationship to parent/child traditional setting.
It is a very different relationship, but there is a built-in inequality. The Sforno says that the eizer knegdo is created almost equal, with a slight lack of equality enabling one to serve the other.
OK ladies, our 122 pages made enough of a commotion that it hit the president's office! The Obama administration has a fringe group that monitors the web to see what's on the mind of the American people. Being alarmed by a specific thread on a message board for Jewish women that was getting non-stop hits, they checked it out. They read through all the pages and had a meeting to analyze the issue and see how they can be of assistance. Funding camp was immediately ruled out, since it runs into church-state separation. So they came up with offering free birth control!!!!
As of January 2013, insurance companies must now pay fully for any choice of BC!!!!!
Kitov, pas nisht to make me laugh so hard during the 9 days.
OK ladies, our 122 pages made enough of a commotion that it hit the president's office! The Obama administration has a fringe group that monitors the web to see what's on the mind of the American people. Being alarmed by a specific thread on a message board for Jewish women that was getting non-stop hits, they checked it out. They read through all the pages and had a meeting to analyze the issue and see how they can be of assistance. Funding camp was immediately ruled out, since it runs into church-state separation. So they came up with offering free birth control!!!!
As of January 2013, insurance companies must now pay fully for any choice of BC!!!!!
Kitov, pas nisht to make me laugh so hard during the 9 days.
Actually, I neglected to say at the time, but I was offended by the America-centric attitude of Kitov's post. Do you not realize that there are non-American people on this board? And therefore how can the board reflect the mind of the American people? I have told the US government not to bother, since it might be the Israelis and the Europeans and the Australians and so on, who actually want the free birth control.
OK ladies, our 122 pages made enough of a commotion that it hit the president's office! The Obama administration has a fringe group that monitors the web to see what's on the mind of the American people. Being alarmed by a specific thread on a message board for Jewish women that was getting non-stop hits, they checked it out. They read through all the pages and had a meeting to analyze the issue and see how they can be of assistance. Funding camp was immediately ruled out, since it runs into church-state separation. So they came up with offering free birth control!!!!
As of January 2013, insurance companies must now pay fully for any choice of BC!!!!!
Kitov, pas nisht to make me laugh so hard during the 9 days.
Actually, I neglected to say at the time, but I was offended by the America-centric attitude of Kitov's post. Do you not realize that there are non-American people on this board? And therefore how can the board reflect the mind of the American people? I have told the US government not to bother, since it might be the Israelis and the Europeans and the Australians and so on, who actually want the free birth control.
I agree that it's funny but I'm born and bred American.
I just want to say, on the subject of threads making one ill, that I avoided this thread until it got to page 114 or so, if I remember correctly, and since I joined the "fun" I have developed a feeling of general malaise accompanied by sore throat and cough.
I also must admit that I didn't see "the camp thread" and I wonder if it is still going.
The primary source from the Torah is "vehu yimshal bah (bach? Not sure)." If anyone is going to argue that pasuk is subject to interpretation, please go read what all the mefarshim say on it. Let me me know what is unclear about it. And sorry, but I don't believe in "that doesn't apply today" unless you have alternate sources to back that up. We don't dismiss parts of the Torah as we see fit.
The primary source from the Torah is "vehu yimshal bah (bach? Not sure)." If anyone is going to argue that pasuk is subject to interpretation, please go read what all the mefarshim say on it. Let me me know what is unclear about it. And sorry, but I don't believe in "that doesn't apply today" unless you have alternate sources to back that up. We don't dismiss parts of the Torah as we see fit.
Yes, we do! Haven't you been through your chumash and your mefarshim and replaced all instances concerning Eretz Yisroel with references to America? Didn't your Rav tell you about that? It's because camp is an American institution and the future of the Jewish people depends on camp.
I just think someone needs to fan the flames if this thread is going to last until page 200.
You betcha this thread is going to last. Forever. I'll find a way to tie in the new topic with camp, just wait. But occasionally I have to work, you know...all those annoying people outside my door waiting for me to sign papers...ah for the days of seeing clients all day in the past, at least then I got to see PEOPLE during the day and not just papers to sign, case files to supervise etc.
Back to topic. What topic? Any topic.
Actually I think as I type and as I type fast, I've got to think fast too.
It's all connected.
We are talking what now, husbands being the head of the household? It's all connected to camp. Just wait.
Women are smart. Binah yiseirah and all that jazz. So why are they so dumb to marry stupid, boorish, unlearned dictators?
Nu be'emes...let's get real here. There are idiots out there. Don't marry them. Be a savvy consumer. Yes marriage is consumerism. Buy the best product for your needs. He's doing the same. What's wrong with thinking like that? Yeah yeah I remember you are blinded with romance and libido, the deadly duo. But that's what the shidduch system is so good for! Don't your parents, siblings, friends, ANYONE out there notice if the guy is a nogoodnik?
Even you are wonderful in what you write, our entire lives in yiddishkeit are based on authority and taking on authority. In many things men and women are similar and equal. In other things they are not. We all take the authority of the ribono shel olam and at least nominally women have to take the authority of their husbands. Hey anyone remember sefer bereishis? I know it's Devorim already but still...remember "vehu yimshol bach?" And he will rule over you? Lots of peurishim. But let's just go by pshat first and foremost.
But...even then, I would say it's not EVEN a benign dictator. No dictator at all...Head does not equal dictator in any sense. A man who doesn't take his wife's opinion or greater knowledge in a field than his or greater sense of whatever or ANY sense of anything into account is a dam$ed fool. Ladies, if you married a dam$ed fool, it's your own fault. If you married a dictator its your own fault.
Mothers teach your sons that women are smart and that a smart man asks his smart wife what to do and then announces it to the world. No it's not lip service. The Grand Vizier can give the king all the info and basically give him the answer complet. But the king is the one whose signature has to go on the national debt..oops budget, no?
Back to camp. And zedoko. I keep saying that part of the problem is that there is no longer any stigma or shame in accepting zedoko. I don't mean for life threatening situations, you don't even thenk then, you take what you can vizehu. But in general. People are no longer ashamed to live a life that is almost fully supported by zedoko including camp, and what's "better" to go into such a life milechaschila and think it is normal and Jewish and fine and say "we rely on the ribono shel olam" but meanwhile people like me are his banker on earth and we are doing the paying out. And more and more, paying out for things which we don't agree with, often because of social Jewish pressure ("if you aren't giving zedoko for this your ahavas yisroel is quite lacking bla bla bla")
What does this have to do with husbands being the head of the household? Maybe when a husband is given the kovod of being the head of the household he also realizes that there are responsibilities and a kind of standing that a king has to have. And that includes knowing what shame is, and how to avoid it.
Maybe, just maybe, if these men not only felt their position as "head" of the household but also felt the responsibility that comes along with it, they would get their personal AND communal acts together in order to change situations for which more and more people are asking for zedoko to be able to do, and create a new and sustainable life without relying more and more on handouts from others.
Because kings don't take handouts or at least they do absolutely everything in their power to avoid such a situation.
it's all in the mindset. And it starts from the top. With the King of the household.
and...if you ended up marrying a dictator, in most cases ITS ALL YOUR OWN FAULT because when someone really IS a dictator, the writing is almost always on the wall way back in shidduchville. Just women are sometimes so blinded with romance/libido that they aren't reading that wall.
How's that for connecting it to camp?
Let's all make a deal that at least every page one person has to mention camp. Then we have legitimacy to keep this going ad infinitum.
The primary source from the Torah is "vehu yimshal bah (bach? Not sure)." If anyone is going to argue that pasuk is subject to interpretation, please go read what all the mefarshim say on it. Let me me know what is unclear about it. And sorry, but I don't believe in "that doesn't apply today" unless you have alternate sources to back that up. We don't dismiss parts of the Torah as we see fit.
You'll notice some other things reading Bereishis:
1) Men are not trustworthy in teaching halacha vs chumra
2) A man ruling over women is a curse, something I try to avoid
3) Men were cursed with working the land - does that mean a man who doesn't farm his own food is avoiding the curse? Or those in Kollel who aren't working at all?
While customs generally go according to the husband, its not an absolute. There were a few things my husband held by that I did not want to, and we spoke to a Rav about them. No issues.
Has anyone here read Rebbetzin Heller's Our Bodies, Our Souls -- great book that includes a clarification of the role of women in the home vis a vis men.
my husband is not my authority figure. he happens to be smarter and more clear-headed than me, so I really value his opinion, and therefore I usually let him make the final decision on a lot of things. but I am more down-to-earth than he is, so sometimes I make the final decision because I dont think his decision is practical.
OK ladies, our 122 pages made enough of a commotion that it hit the president's office! The Obama administration has a fringe group that monitors the web to see what's on the mind of the American people. Being alarmed by a specific thread on a message board for Jewish women that was getting non-stop hits, they checked it out. They read through all the pages and had a meeting to analyze the issue and see how they can be of assistance. Funding camp was immediately ruled out, since it runs into church-state separation. So they came up with offering free birth control!!!!
As of January 2013, insurance companies must now pay fully for any choice of BC!!!!!
