Mabelle, I'm saying my husband doesn't really have a seat. I honestly wouldn't respect a man who needs to claim a seat as his domain. What does he need his dominance shown in a seat?
And FS, a woman has the right to opt out of her husband owning her earnings as well.
Also, practical application of halacha is very different today then it was 1000 years ago. If you think a Rav would allow a man to steamroll his kids into a type of chinuch his wife was adamently against (barring extreme circumstances), I would probably find many other things wrong with that Rav.
But I'll join Barbara in the non-frum category if that's what pushes me there LOL. I don't need to be frum then.
And Mabellevie, I don't believe frum marriages are really happier than non-frum/Jewish marriages. I think they are just more stuck and put up with a lot more.
I totally agree with saw.
It's all nice and well when you're describing the perfect man, who will always do what's best for everyone and treats his wife as a queen.
How many men like that exist? What about all the men who abuse power, who treat treat their wives as one would their cleaning lady, or worse. This whole "halachic relationship between husband and wife" that is being described only works within the ideal relationship. That's not reality.
The fact that the perfect husband doesnt abuse his power doesnt take away from the fact that he can if he wants to. And lets face it, there are enough men out there that want to.
As for the husbands seat, my dh doesnt have one either. We sit wherever most practical for both of us to help the kids.
My DH & I really do have a balanced marriage/partnership. We've always made decisions together & when there's been no agreement nothing changes until we re-visit the topic. He helps me tremendously in the house, is an amazing, supportive father & he really is a mentsch.
My DH's seat at the table is sacrosanct. That's the way it should be IMO. We don't sit there. Period, end of sentence. So I guess that makes me a shmattah, right? Not emancipated enough, am I?
Yud-Beis is our 36th wedding anniversay. MommyZ, I'm going to suggest I give him a different gift: a younger wife!!! Bet he runs for the hills! I know what he'll say: hon, you're enough of a wife for me! I'm really not sure how to take that...............................................
My DH & I really do have a balanced marriage/partnership. We've always made decisions together & when there's been no agreement nothing changes until we re-visit the topic. He helps me tremendously in the house, is an amazing, supportive father & he really is a mentsch.
My DH's seat at the table is sacrosanct. That's the way it should be IMO. We don't sit there. Period, end of sentence. So I guess that makes me a shmattah, right? Not emancipated enough, am I?
Yud-Beis is our 36th wedding anniversay. MommyZ, I'm going to suggest I give him a different gift: a younger wife!!! Bet he runs for the hills! I know what he'll say: hon, you're enough of a wife for me! I'm really not sure how to take that...............................................
My DH & I really do have a balanced marriage/partnership. We've always made decisions together & when there's been no agreement nothing changes until we re-visit the topic. He helps me tremendously in the house, is an amazing, supportive father & he really is a mentsch.
My DH's seat at the table is sacrosanct. That's the way it should be IMO. We don't sit there. Period, end of sentence. So I guess that makes me a shmattah, right? Not emancipated enough, am I?
Yud-Beis is our 36th wedding anniversay. MommyZ, I'm going to suggest I give him a different gift: a younger wife!!! Bet he runs for the hills! I know what he'll say: hon, you're enough of a wife for me! I'm really not sure how to take that...............................................
Here's how I see it. He doesn't like anyone sitting in his seat. You love him, and respect his feelings on that issue. Its not an order or a decree. Its not Archie Bunker's chair. Its the love and respect that you show him. Just like he shows you on other issues.
But it *can* be Archie Bunker's chair in other homes, or other types of relationships. And to me, that is both imperious and problematic.
Back to the inheritance issue - I don't understand. Here in Israel, many, many people don't write halachic wills. Many don't write any will at all. But if someone dies, let's say a widower with no wife in the picture, and no will (halachic or otherwise), his assets are divided EQUALLY among the children. EQUALLY. By the rabbanut, which is run by charedi rabbis.
Never ever have I heard of any man getting more than his sisters (unless of course the deceased wrote a will with such a request). So obviously the charedi rabbinate in charge of inheritance issues thinks that in our day and age men and women deserve equal inheritance.
And Mabellevie, I don't believe frum marriages are really happier than non-frum/Jewish marriages. I think they are just more stuck and put up with a lot more.
No one is claiming domains. In most homes I've been in, the man has one set seat where he sits for family meals and Shabbat, generally at the head of the table. So that's his seat. His children are not allowed to sit in it without permission, and neither is his wife, according to halacha. He may have no problem with everyone, including the pet rat, sitting there, but that's his choice.
I don't believe frum marriages are happier by default, but I do believe they have more potential for happiness, given our guiding principles. So many of them have been echoed by secular professionals, but society is not really going in that direction. In any happy and healthy marriage, each partner focuses on the needs of the other. That's what the Torah believes, and that's what many outsiders preach as well. Bringing up abusive and dysfunctional relationships is irrelevant to this thread. We are talking about healthy marriages. I won't claim that my own is ideal, but at least I strive for that. Me, on on what I can do for my husband, and he on what he can do for me. When there is discord or someones needs are not being met, we discuss it openly. None of that contradicts halacha; halacha actually supports it.
So we went shopping for dining room chairs. I got the table on craigs list for $75 but the chairs they came with fell apart... So off we go to buy chairs as a couple making decisions together.
I want padded back chairs. He wants hard back. We agree on brown leather.
I get side chairs and he gets end chairs. Nice compromise.
Chairs are delivered and he PROCLAIMS this is my chair NO ONE MAY SIT ON IT!!!!!!
This coming from a man who refused to allow me to to set aside a spot for him at the table and he always musical chairs around the table. A shocking decree and we all look to obey him....
We turn our back to the issue for a moment and Little Mr CAT jumps right up on FATHERS chairs and scratched the @#$% out of the nice new leather seat.
We are now fully aware who actually is the Head of this Household!
I totally agree with saw.
It's all nice and well when you're describing the perfect man, who will always do what's best for everyone and treats his wife as a queen.
How many men like that exist? What about all the men who abuse power, who treat treat their wives as one would their cleaning lady, or worse. This whole "halachic relationship between husband and wife" that is being described only works within the ideal relationship. That's not reality.
The fact that the perfect husband doesnt abuse his power doesnt take away from the fact that he can if he wants to. And lets face it, there are enough men out there that want to.
As for the husbands seat, my dh doesnt have one either. We sit wherever most practical for both of us to help the kids.
This. This whole 'head of the household' is just shallow lip service if we only mean 'head' when the man is a perfect mensch. How many households does that encompass? 5%? Let's face it, most men are far, far from perfect, (as are most women), and it's so easy for a man to abuse such power. And when a man abuses such power, it leads to resentment and frustration for the woman - not a recipe for a good marriage. Maybe 50 or 100 yrs ago women felt less resentment because they were too busy feeling grateful they had financial and physical protection. But society has changed, and as women's ability to get by on their own has increased, so has their intolerance for such resentment.
My DH & I really do have a balanced marriage/partnership. We've always made decisions together & when there's been no agreement nothing changes until we re-visit the topic. He helps me tremendously in the house, is an amazing, supportive father & he really is a mentsch.
My DH's seat at the table is sacrosanct. That's the way it should be IMO. We don't sit there. Period, end of sentence. So I guess that makes me a shmattah, right? Not emancipated enough, am I?
Yud-Beis is our 36th wedding anniversay. MommyZ, I'm going to suggest I give him a different gift: a younger wife!!! Bet he runs for the hills! I know what he'll say: hon, you're enough of a wife for me! I'm really not sure how to take that...............................................
You are awesome .
No I'm not. I'm a pain in the patootsky. HE is the Tzaddik round here. If I'd have been married to me I'd have divorced me years ago. I worked out if DH had done away with me he'd have been out after 25 years!!! Divorce is more expensive!
Most dining room tables are rectangular. Father sits on one end, mother at the other. Two heads. See, it is possible. That's how we do it, that's how most people I know do it. On Shabbat the kids wouldn't dream of sitting in my husband's chair or in mine, but during the week of course they do, the dining area is used for homework, etc.
I also have friends who bought a round table on purpose to avoid all this hierarchy. And believe me, the dad in that family is more of a mensch than most. No emasculation.
I totally agree with saw.
It's all nice and well when you're describing the perfect man, who will always do what's best for everyone and treats his wife as a queen.
How many men like that exist? What about all the men who abuse power, who treat treat their wives as one would their cleaning lady, or worse. This whole "halachic relationship between husband and wife" that is being described only works within the ideal relationship. That's not reality.
The fact that the perfect husband doesnt abuse his power doesnt take away from the fact that he can if he wants to. And lets face it, there are enough men out there that want to.
As for the husbands seat, my dh doesnt have one either. We sit wherever most practical for both of us to help the kids.
This. This whole 'head of the household' is just shallow lip service if we only mean 'head' when the man is a perfect mensch. How many households does that encompass? 5%? Let's face it, most men are far, far from perfect, (as are most women), and it's so easy for a man to abuse such power. And when a man abuses such power, it leads to resentment and frustration for the woman - not a recipe for a good marriage. Maybe 50 or 100 yrs ago women felt less resentment because they were too busy feeling grateful they had financial and physical protection. But society has changed, and as women's ability to get by on their own has increased, so has their intolerance for such resentment.
Don't get me wrong, DH is not perfect. He is the HOH because (& when) I say so!! The reality is, we really try to be on the same page & we are with the exception of one MAJOR issue which is a thorn in my side. I can't explain as it is DH's issue. Manly pride, I suppose!!
My husband and I each have a seat, no one else is allowed to sit there (as long as the chair actually is at the table.) All my kids ask. We have taught the other children who come in to ask.
My seat is no different than dh.
As far as the husband sitting in a wife's chair and vs versa, those are in the laws of niddah.
Most dining room tables are rectangular. Father sits on one end, mother at the other. Two heads. See, it is possible. That's how we do it, that's how most people I know do it. On Shabbat the kids wouldn't dream of sitting in my husband's chair or in mine, but during the week of course they do, the dining area is used for homework, etc.
I also have friends who bought a round table on purpose to avoid all this hierarchy. And believe me, the dad in that family is more of a mensch than most. No emasculation.
Like I said, respecting the man of the house does not mean there isn't respect for the woman of the house. Both are important, no one demands, and each respects the other.
I have big, big issues with avoiding hierarchy altogether in a home. Parents and children are not equals, that is just wrong. But thats a separate discussion.
For those of you who want your husband to have the final say in all decisions, do you also want him to be able to take a second wife if he wants to? That's also in the Torah.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
This should be good for a few more pages.
Between dina de malchusa dina, and the many edot who stopped or never began, for most it would be forbidden.
Most dining room tables are rectangular. Father sits on one end, mother at the other. Two heads. See, it is possible. That's how we do it, that's how most people I know do it. On Shabbat the kids wouldn't dream of sitting in my husband's chair or in mine, but during the week of course they do, the dining area is used for homework, etc.
I also have friends who bought a round table on purpose to avoid all this hierarchy. And believe me, the dad in that family is more of a mensch than most. No emasculation.
Like I said, respecting the man of the house does not mean there isn't respect for the woman of the house. Both are important, no one demands, and each respects the other.
I have big, big issues with avoiding hierarchy altogether in a home. Parents and children are not equals, that is just wrong. But thats a separate discussion.
Respecting the woman of the house also does not mean there isn't respect for th man of the house. There is no reason why a wife's seat can't be as important as a husbands, there is no reason why both can't be respected equally.
Of course there is a hierarchy; it goes, parents, children. It doesn't have to go Husband, wife, children.
I totally agree with saw.
It's all nice and well when you're describing the perfect man, who will always do what's best for everyone and treats his wife as a queen.
How many men like that exist? What about all the men who abuse power, who treat treat their wives as one would their cleaning lady, or worse. This whole "halachic relationship between husband and wife" that is being described only works within the ideal relationship. That's not reality.
The fact that the perfect husband doesnt abuse his power doesnt take away from the fact that he can if he wants to. And lets face it, there are enough men out there that want to.
As for the husbands seat, my dh doesnt have one either. We sit wherever most practical for both of us to help the kids.
This. This whole 'head of the household' is just shallow lip service if we only mean 'head' when the man is a perfect mensch. How many households does that encompass? 5%? Let's face it, most men are far, far from perfect, (as are most women), and it's so easy for a man to abuse such power. And when a man abuses such power, it leads to resentment and frustration for the woman - not a recipe for a good marriage. Maybe 50 or 100 yrs ago women felt less resentment because they were too busy feeling grateful they had financial and physical protection. But society has changed, and as women's ability to get by on their own has increased, so has their intolerance for such resentment.
It's a HUGE leap to make between someone being perfect and someone abusing power.
People can be far from perfect but still be mentchlich and respectful without abusing their role in the home.
He said first, this is the Biblical way (mainly land to keep together and in the tribe hence boys) by many it changed a loooong time ago. And even if you do that, the sons have to support mom at her previous level forever or until she remarries, and same for sisters. And he is not quite a feminist...
I have no idea what his basis is for indicating that a Halachic will is not necessary for women who would like an inheritance while adhering to halacha. AFAIK, it is widespread and recommended by all poskim today. Women are not Halachic heirs, whether in biblical times or in 2011. Married daughters would not be entitled to anything according to halacha otherwise.
First, dina de malchuta dina in most countries... and for a long time. Ask your own shaila.
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